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You download the app and it doesn’t work

youdownloadtheappanditdoesntwork.com

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Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#531

Post by ryanlol »

bogwog wrote: post #402
zaroth wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans applying policy will be inconsistent. The alternative is Google where algorithms apply policy, and if they misapply a policy to you're simply screwed. I think the inverse to "Apple employed humans make a judgement call" is "Apple is no longer allowed to control their App Store". I don't like that option, because the curated App Store is a big reason why I bought an iPhone.

> I think the inverse to "Apple employed humans make a judgement call" is "Apple is no longer allowed to control their App Store". I think the right alternative is "Users should have a choice of app stores"

And they do, if you want play store or huawei store instead of apple app store you can just get an android phone. Nobody is forced to buy an iPhone, there is no monopoly at play here.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#532

Post by slavak »

nodamage wrote: post #457
twicetwice wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They certainly have a monopoly on "distributing software to iPhones." I don't get why no one makes this point. One could argue it's a monopoly they've earned. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But certainly there is a market for iPhone app distribution, and Apple has a monopoly in that market.

Because at that point you've redefined the word "monopoly" to the point where it becomes tautological.

Well there are US Supreme Court justices who seem to agree with that definition, so it might be tautological, but it's legally significant regardless.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-court-apple-monop...

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#533

Post by [deleted] »

jpttsn wrote: post #233
arduinomancer wrote: post #175

Why is Apple's revenue here even percentage-based at all? It makes zero sense. According to Apple they need this revenue cut because of the cost of keeping the platform running. If I offer a subscription in my app for 1$/month vs 10$/month what marginal expense is being incurred that apple deserves an extra $2.70 for the higher price?

You’ve seen through it, congrats: they are pricing based on value, not cost. McDonalds, Nike and Gillette do this too. Hey, maybe you’re doing it yourself: is your salary really the cheapest way for you to produce the work you get paid for?

[deleted]

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#534

Post by DangitBobby »

screwycaboose wrote: post #419
dan-robertson wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, where has Basecamp been for the decade prior? Funny how they're propping this as some rightgeous issue when it suddenly impacts their bottom line. I think they testified in the US Congress about Apple’s practices recently

Recently enough that they happened to be working on Hey at the same time.

Your point being?

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#535

Post by eddieroger »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #515
eddieroger wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s their store, and they get to pick what’s in it. If you want stuff not available in that store, you need a new store. You own the phone, but you agreed to only load software on it from the one store, as it has been for the last decade.

No, they need to allow other stores with different rules and different pricing models. If not, then their store needs to drop the anti competitive practices. This is what the EU investigation is about.

Until the EU decides, they don’t need to do anything. And when the EU decides, if they decide it’s not anti-competitive, they get to go back to doing nothing. You have a choice of what device you use, and if you don’t like all of the things that come with Apple products, vote with your money and use something else.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#536

Post by acituan »

pdonis wrote: post #512
acituan wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Users seem overall to be quite satisfied with what they are getting from their iPhones. So your claim here appears to be empirically false. A lack of reduction in observable demand doesn't imply an absence of cost. Let's say the cost of having a singular app store for the user can be expressed as 99$, but the average utility they derive from using their iPhone is valued at 100$. It would be rational for that user t…

> A lack of reduction in observable demand doesn't imply an absence of cost. Waving your hands and throwing random numbers around doesn't imply a presence of cost. > That is appeal to tradition. It is no such thing. I'm just trying to figure out what your actual position is. > monopolistic nature of tech combined with vertical integration is a large unsolved problem Which makes it clearer what your position is: you t…

> Waving your hands and throwing random numbers around doesn't imply a presence of cost.

Come on, let's not go in circles. I posited there is a cost to user in being locked into a single app store. You claimed if there was such cost, we necessarily would have seen decrease in user demand. My handwaving numbers were to demonstrate that it doesn't have to be true, there can be substantial user costs without any decrease in user demand.

> giving away valuable things for free, or selling them at or below cost, in order to capture users and sell their data and their eyeballs or corner markets

You're close but not there. Being able to give away things for free come from the giant profits accumulated through monopolistic vertical integration. Google has a compute platform that runs a search engine/youtube that sells adds that is viewed through their browser that runs on their mobile phone. Those are multiple integration points (though not all are monopolistic). If for example Google were to pay for an external compute platform that is not theirs, they would have to pay for the profit margin of the service provider, but without is all of that money stays within the company, and that is one of the factors that enable them "giving away valuable things for free".

Data integration is a completely different game. Selling data to outside is the least powerful way to make money out of it, especially if you have other data and products. It is akin to a 3rd world country selling their raw resources. What makes the most money is the integration of multiple data sources through multiple products and even 3rd party vendors. The magic of an SQL join is that joining table-a and table-b can yield more information that neither a and b had alone. When you join the data of a browser and a search engine and 3rd party information you bought to sell more clickable ads, that is when the most money is made out of the data. The more money you make, the more you can run loss leaders, buy competitors, create barriers of entry (a la app stores), and meanwhile damage the entire ICT ecosystem in the name of even more money. That is why ensuring market health is important.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#537

Post by acituan »

pdonis wrote: post #510
acituan wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not one that's fixable except by users changing their preferences. By definition market failures can't be fixed by market dynamics. That is why state does tons of interventions/regulations to make it work. > That's called free market competition, not monopoly. No. Vertical integration means there is no free market at the integration point to begin with, which integration of a software application store with a…

> By definition market failures can't be fixed by market dynamics. That's why I put "market failure" in quotes. If you think anything fixable by users changing their preferences isn't a "market failure" by your definition, fine, then the Apple situation is not a market failure by your definition. > That is why state does tons of interventions/regulations to make it work. No, the government does tons of interventions/…

> Throwing around buzzwords proves nothing

These are technical terms, not buzzwords and calling them so doesn't make much of a counter-argument.

> That's the essence of a free market

No it is not. You seem to equate free market with unregulated market which is not always true. Markets fail to self-regulate in the absence of open competition, which is what precisely the App Store on iPhone is. Nearly half of the mobile phone apps in the US comes from a closed market. Imagine instead Apple owned half of the roads in the US and stipulated what businesses could use those roads, e.g. only certain grocery store's trucks can deliver goods over them. That would be far from a free market too.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#538

Post by Zanneth »

One point that is always conspicuously absent from all of these kinds of discussions is a reflection on the actual value that Apple is providing for apps that are hosted on the AppStore. In the modern day software ecosystem, it is far too easy to take everything for granted and assume that all of these big companies like Apple, Google, and Amazon are all building software platforms for developers out of the good of their hearts. The reality is, these companies are all profit-driven, and the only reason why Apple for instance invests billions of dollars every year into the SDK is because there is a mutually beneficial relationship that exists between them and the developers.

Of course all developers want an ecosystem where they can develop their own software for the devices that they and their customers use without restrictions. However, the developer community should be careful to not become too complacent and expect that Apple and other companies are just going to give them everything that they want for free. If the technology industry wants to get serious about building free and open platforms, then we should start focusing on supporting projects like the Librem[1] smartphone which are built with open-source ideals in mind.

[1] https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#539

Post by nodamage »

DangitBobby wrote: post #530
nodamage wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, 1) why is anyone surprised by this? 2) If you make an app that sells cat videos you would also qualify for the digital content exemption, "key business" or not.

What makes you think anyone is surprised? Do you think anger or frustration requires surprise?

Why would anyone be angry or frustrated that "Apple designed their rules so most of the key businesses in this world don't pay an insane 30% of their revenue to Apple"?

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#540

Post by nodamage »

411111111111111 wrote: post #528
nodamage wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't sign up for a Wells Fargo online user account without first having a Wells Fargo bank account. Therefore there is an external requirement. Update : I just double checked. The Wells Fargo Android app and Wells Fargo iOS apps behave identically. You are immediately presented with a login screen upon launch. There is no signup flow inside either app but you can click a link that opens a web browser with a link…

They're likely all webview apps with a single codebase though. If they remove it for Apple, it would likely be gone for Android as well. Don't remember if they had a link for signups before though, just pointing out that you can't deduce that point from given facts. (Nor is there proof for the original thesis, it's all speculation at this point)

Fair enough, but it's not like they couldn't provide a more direct signup option in the Android version if they wanted to. The fact that they didn't is telling, IMO.

To circle back to the original point, blaming Apple for the "trend" of not being able to sign up inside of apps is clearly nonsensical.

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