You download the app and it doesn’t work • Hacker News Board

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#141

Post by Sean-Der » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 11:00 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #111

Grimm1 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do it at no benefit to the OSS providers, that's the issue.

But isn't that part of the point of open source? If you want people to have to pay for it in some way, it needs to be part of the license. The license is essentially free for all.

Open Source isn't just one mindset. This isn't exhaustive, but the ones I encounter the most.

* You have people that are ideologically driven (FSF)

* You have companies that Open Source as a weapon [0] (Chromium)

* You have projects that are very pragmatic. They believe it is the path to technical excellence.

* You have individuals do it for their resume

* You have individuals that do it just for fun :)

[0] https://www.gwern.net/Complement#open-source-as-a-strategic-...

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#142

Post by zaroth » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 11:00 PM UTC

alfonsodev wrote: post #127

parsimo2010 wrote: post #52

I think there needs to be some distinction between apps that are the main product (or close to it) and apps that support another product (like there is npo point to having the app by itself, you should already have gotten the product/account before downloading the app). I don't know too much about Apple's rules to know if they use that criteria, but it makes sense to me. An app to manage your Tesla makes no sense unl…

The Tesla example is unfortunate to support he point because Apple doesn’t charge 30% on physical goods. A funny idea, maybe some apps should sell a physical card, or wearable that gives you access to premium features, but it would be ecological.

Case in point - I used Apple Pay to reserve my Model 3 for $1,000.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#143

Post by iSoron » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 11:01 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #108

iSoron wrote: post #5

> "That’s not what we want on the store" -- Apple Vice President of Worldwide Marketing What if I own an iPhone and HEY is what I want on my phone? How can I override Apple's decision? If I can't, who really owns this device?

You can override their decision by jailbreaking your phone.

If Apple provided an official jailbreaking tool, I would actually consider this a valid solution, even if it voided the warranty on the device.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#144

Post by RandallBrown » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 11:03 PM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #106

hyperpape wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this point is worth highlighting. Although I'm not at all on Apple's side here, they are offering something of value. What galls is that they're demanding 15-30% of all revenue for it. Payment processing simply isn't that costly, and I doubt the app store is that expensive either.

They're not charging for the payment processing though. They're charging a premium because you're using their platform/store as part of your sales funnel. They know that being able to sell your stuff on iOS devices is worth a lot of money and that you'll make more money after the 30% cut than if you didn't sell in the store at all. Apple knows that customer acquisition is extremely expensive outside the store and is…

They are charging (at least partially) for payment processing.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#145

Post by donmcronald » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 11:04 PM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #113

breakfastduck wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There wouldn't be uproar if it was 10%. Everything else is perfectly reasonable but taking a 30% cut is extreme.

Why though? Apple is well-aware of their worth in your sales funnel and know that customer acquisition outside of their store/devices is a lot more expensive. Nobody would be complaining if you Apple's user-base wasn't so juicy that your best option is forking over 30%. If it was easy to acquire customers outside the store it wouldn't even be an issue.

Forking over 30% isn't the best option. It's the only option.

If Apple had unlisted apps that didn't show up in the store listings and required a click through from your website to get to the app's store page, I bet some developers would opt for that if it meant they didn't have to pay the 30% tax.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#146

Post by Spivak » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 11:04 PM UTC

Hamuko wrote: post #112

breakfastduck wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to me, but that's my choice to make. I just won't use it.

Unfortunately Apple's intention is that you would not hear about an alternative way to pay for the subscription and that the alternative way is cheaper.

I mean if you partnered with Target to sell your shampoo I think they would be rightfully pissed if the bottles you sent them to put down said something like "Buy it on our website instead for 30% cheaper!"

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#147

Post by zaroth » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 11:04 PM UTC

dgudkov wrote: post #76

On a side note, I don't know whether it's intentional or not, but the whole story is a great marketing campaign for HEY. Clashing with Apple made everybody learn about the app in a matter of days.

I would say that if anything Hey was hoping that Apple would reject their app specifically so they could become a cause célèbre, and ride the streisand effect,

They've done a great job organizing their protest campaign. I would be extremely surprised if it wasn't planned from the beginning. They are ultimately depending on Apple caving under pressure.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#148

Post by Hamuko » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 11:04 PM UTC

parsimo2010 wrote: post #52

I think there needs to be some distinction between apps that are the main product (or close to it) and apps that support another product (like there is npo point to having the app by itself, you should already have gotten the product/account before downloading the app). I don't know too much about Apple's rules to know if they use that criteria, but it makes sense to me. An app to manage your Tesla makes no sense unl…

>one other thing I haven't seen whether Basecamp could just charge $141.43 per year if someone pays through Apple, so Basecamp would get $99 per year after Apple takes their 30% cut.

They could.

>People that don't care about money could sign up in-app, but most people will sign up outside the app.

The problem is that the iOS app cannot in any way or form mention that a) you can pay for the subscription outside the application b) the price of the subscription outside of the application is different than inside the application.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#149

Post by wldlyinaccurate » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 11:06 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #128

hendzen wrote: post #37

Apple takes a 30% cut of all IAP. Google scrapes info and displays it in widgets above links to the actual content. Google charges trademark holders AdWords ransom to protect searches for their own brands. Amazon kills OSS business models by offering managed OSS services on AWS at an unbeatable cost. Amazon picks off the best performing market place categories with Amazon Basics ‘recommended’ competitors. The list go…

I can use Google Chrome, and still use a non-Google search engine. I can use a Kindle, and still read DRM-Free epubs. Yes, all the major tech companies are engaged in rent seeking. But Apple is the only one that says users must either must pay rent or throw away their hardware. The App Store and its policies are not the problem. The App Store is Apple's store, just like Amazon.com is Amazon's store. But the App Store…

Doesn't Android have the same problem? If your app isn't in the Play Store, it may as well not exist.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#150

Post by gpanders » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 11:07 PM UTC

breakfastduck wrote: post #100

hyperpape wrote: post #50

There are a lot of rules lawyers in threads about Hey trying to figure out "tricks" that Basecamp or others could use to avoid the rule. That is not how this works. Apple is not a court, which (usually) plays by well stated rules, and cannot remake those rules at its discretion. No, if you find a "trick" to get around Apple's rules[0], what happens is that you get blocked when they catch you. They might update the ru…

It's a bit of a joke to be honest. Hey are trying to market an app on the app store as a 'free' app. Not offering sign up also means they don't have to add the 'offers in app purchases'. So they're advertising the app as free. Even though its $99 a year. Apples 30% cut is obscene and should be less. But Hey are using a 'free' label to market their app.

The app is free, the service is not. No ambiguity here.