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How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

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Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#191

Post by cycomanic »

carapace wrote: post #168
ficklepickle wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cause or effect? I would argue that the warrior cop mentality escalates violence. That style of police training was banned by the mayor in Minneapolis, yet it continues to be taught and implemented. You have a very sick society and until you realize it is not all the fault of one group it will persist.

It's a cause: we here in the USA are pretty fucking nuts. I've heard a group of off-duty police discussing their work talking about going into a house and literally not knowing if the folks inside are going to open fire with automatic weapons. FWIW, I agree that "the warrior cop mentality" is a problem, and professionalism in police work is crucial, e.g. the Peelian principles ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_…

And yet police officer are number 16 of the most dangerous jobs in the US just behind first line supervisors of mechanics, installers and repairers and before construction workers.

So the reasoning that they act like this because of their dangerous job is a myth.

Source: https://www.ajc.com/business/employment/these-are-the-most-d...

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#192

Post by Shared404 »

rayiner wrote: post #84
samdamsamm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tonight I witnessed a young girl get knocked out cold by a tear gas canister shot into her face from about a 40 ft. range. She was holding her hands up. There was nothing but peaceful protesters standing around, not blocking traffic. No vandalism anywhere in sight. This was in Louisville, KY. The police fired rubber bullets at the group of people carrying her away to a place on the other side of the line of humvees b…

> Everything most middle-income Americans think about our police forces is wrong After moving to the suburbs, I realized that most Americans base their opinions on their own police forces. The last time I got pulled over in the exurbs where I live, the officer basically apologized for pulling me over. Things are very different an hour away from here in DC.

This exactly. I have yet to hear any complaints about police in my town, but the next town over has one of the most corrupt police departments that I've ever heard of.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#193

Post by Diesel555 »

danharaj wrote: post #167
briefcomment wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both your claim and the parent's claim are equally shocking, and the evidence for both is hearsay from someone who lives on the street. How do we know who is being sincere, who is pushing an agenda, who is mistaken, who is experiencing cognitive dissonance, etc.

The history of police being bastards towards protestors? If you think you have no way of establishing priors you aren't examining the facts.

I think there could be an aspect of availability heuristic. You don't watch news of police not acting aggressive towards protestors. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, or doesn't happen even more often than it does. Same with the comment below about why cops aren't speaking up. I've read some articles where they are, but again... it's not going to make news nearly as much as the bad apples do.

This doesn't negate the bad apples and all the bad things that have happened or in any way go against the protests. Just try to be aware when classifying an entire group as bad based hand picked information presented to you.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#194

Post by rsynnott »

rayiner wrote: post #91
rsynnott wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if part of why it seems particularly bad (for a developed country) in the US is the local police force system. In countries with national police forces, misconduct investigations are often conducted by specialist staff who may be from the other side of the country, who likely aren't really in the same org chart, and so on. It seems intuitively less likely to produce a fair result if the people investigating…

The reason why it’s particularly bad in the US is that we’ve got insanely high levels of violent and organized crime. Baltimore, where I used to live, the homicide rate per 100,000 people is 30-50 times higher than in say Berlin, Madrid, London, etc. It’s almost double the rate of Bogota. That creates a police force that treats policing like its war, and public systems that give wide latitude to errors or misconduct,…

> just as we would give soldiers in war.

I’m not sure if soldiers in war actually are given all that much latitude over murdering civilians; if caught they do tend to be punished.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#195

Post by _dps »

cycomanic wrote: post #191
carapace wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a cause: we here in the USA are pretty fucking nuts. I've heard a group of off-duty police discussing their work talking about going into a house and literally not knowing if the folks inside are going to open fire with automatic weapons. FWIW, I agree that "the warrior cop mentality" is a problem, and professionalism in police work is crucial, e.g. the Peelian principles ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_…

And yet police officer are number 16 of the most dangerous jobs in the US just behind first line supervisors of mechanics, installers and repairers and before construction workers. So the reasoning that they act like this because of their dangerous job is a myth. Source: https://www.ajc.com/business/employment/these-are-the-most-d...

I'm curious if anyone has a data source on this that actually breaks down by duties? A "police officer" can be a beat cop in Baltimore, or a desk sergeant in Omaha, or an IA reviewer etc.

When people say "being a police officer" is risky they obviously mean the part where you go around physically enforcing law and order, not the other parts that are actually the majority of many long-term police careers. But the fact that the current beat cop will in 5 years have a much safer job doesn't mean that the current job is not very risky.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#197

Post by crispyambulance »

anigbrowl wrote: post #68
crispyambulance wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a chaotic situation. They (the police/nat-guard) likely wanted people inside their homes to prevent further chaos and confrontations. It all becomes more volatile if everyone's on their porch, outraged, as the police "parade" comes through. I know folks on HN like strict interpretations and reasoning of what's legal or illegal, but all of that gets very blurred during a riot when the situation at any given time…

- There isn't a riot happening there - shooting people on their porch is the cause of chaos and confrontation you claim police are trying to prevent - fuck those guys

They were either going to or coming from a riot area.

Their responsibility is to make sure the riot doesn't spread and stop the riot. They can't do that effectively if they have to wade through a massive crowd of onlookers appearing wherever they go. Bad actors easily mix in to situations like this and make the situation extremely dangerous for everyone. If someone doesn't respond to direct commands in such an emergency, they're going to be seen as potential bad actors.

It's totally reasonable to demand that people stay inside their houses while the police are securing the area.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#198

Post by fzeroracer »

germinalphrase wrote: post #113
dessant wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even need to leave your porch to get shot. Police and National Guard are patrolling neighborhoods and shooting civilians with paint canisters on their own property in Minneapolis. In one case they yelled "Light 'em up!" before starting to shoot [1] with ammunition that could blind people. It's legal to be outside your house during the curfew in Minneapolis [2]. > Can I be outside my house (on my property) a…

I’m a local. Here’s some additional context: “Follow up on video of people getting rubber bullets shot at them in their doorway from a source that was there. This was personally texted to me. Source is a teacher that works at my elementary school. Here’s what was posted. ‘That is my blue house across the street. Apparently this video has gone viral. What they didn’t show was the 20- 30 minutes of the rioters that sur…

Where's the actual source? Given that it's using hashtags at the end, it's either a compilation of tweets or a post on some other site.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#199

Post by bsanr2 »

xphilter wrote: post #141
sethammons wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s where you missed it: it is not reasonable to give unlawful orders, it is not reasonable to order someone on private property to go inside. They can request folks to go inside. They cannot order it until their powers are elevated by law. Might doesn’t make right.

I agree; but it is possible to have a lawful order to control someone on private property. An example was the Boston bombing manhunt where police were doing door to door searches because there was a specific, articulated threat in a defined geographic area (note, I don’t know that’s the real legal test, but I’m sure it considers factors like that).

What you're calling for is the suspension of the rule of law.

No crisis justifies this unless you're willing to throw the whole thing out permanently. If you have a problem with a lack of police powers to compel house arrest without cause or to search without permission or warrant, write a new Constitutional amendment and get it passed.

Re: How to Safely and Ethically Film Police Misconduct

#200

Post by bsanr2 »

roenxi wrote: post #20
samdamsamm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tonight I witnessed a young girl get knocked out cold by a tear gas canister shot into her face from about a 40 ft. range. She was holding her hands up. There was nothing but peaceful protesters standing around, not blocking traffic. No vandalism anywhere in sight. This was in Louisville, KY. The police fired rubber bullets at the group of people carrying her away to a place on the other side of the line of humvees b…

> Everything most middle-income Americans think about our police forces is wrong. That statement is a bit vague, everyone is going to substitute their own interpretation in. The police don't target racial minorities because they are racist. People who want power over others sign up for policing - and then go after groups who have the least ability to fight back. The middle income might know the symptoms, but they are…

  The police don't target racial minorities because they are racist.
To the contrary, implicit bias has been shown to effect policing decision-making and outcomes. You're beginning from an inaccurate premise.
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