US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis • Hacker News Board

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#251

Post by master-litty » Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

meragrin_ wrote: post #121

dv_dt wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this is too political, but the only tool they actually needed was one they had the whole time. Charge the offices based upon the evidence and open a more detailed investigation. The military equipment was entirely unnecessary - but it's very availability makes opportunity for bad decisions.

In all probability, union rules stand in the way of making any quick arrests. Their hands are tied. It is better for them to appear slow and do things by the book than try to appease the irrational mob. They'll eventually get to where the mob wants to go rather than ending up with the cops "winning" in some way due violations of union rules and procedures.

I have a hard time rationalizing this. I get the impression that they don’t want to conduct an arrest or get anyone in trouble — In their eyes, it was a mistake in need of no justice.

That’s what the riots are about after all; I don’t think anyone needs it to move quickly, they just need acknowledgement justice is needed and will meaningfully move forward. There was previously no promise of that.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#252

Post by heelix » Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

ColanR wrote: post #158

pm90 wrote: post #22

This was very predictable. Tools invented for military operations abroad eventually, predictably find their way back domestically. Despite that, its a dangerous thing to happen. I am aware of how unlikely it is for the current US Government to use the drone offensively, but once you have a massive fleet of drones flying over the US, patrolling "troubling" neighborhoods constantly, the temptation to use those abilitie…

This has been happening for at least 4 years already. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-rap... https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/peteraldhous/spies-in-t...

Even longer - I remember seeing one circle over the 2009 Fargo flood while we were sand bagging.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#253

Post by outworlder » Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #212

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These protests are at least partly drummed up by out of state agitators This is a scary response. We saw, today, a black CNN reporter arrested by state police on live television. If that’s how an educated, gently-speaking, Constitutionally-protected member of the press is treated, there is a root issue festering. Blaming it on agitators deflects from introspection. A big part of the problem is Minneapolis’s moderat…

If you watched an of the live feeds from the last two nights there are plenty of people who announce that they're from e.g. Nebraska and part of some Antifa faction. >A big part of the problem is Minneapolis’s moderates have turned a blind eye to the problems in their police force for years. I don't understand how people can honestly think this is true. The Police Commissioner is literally the guy from Internal Affai…

> The Police Commissioner is literally the guy from Internal Affairs who filed a lawsuit against the city for not promoting black officers fast enough.

Looking after their own. Should I give them a cookie too and a belly rub?

The protests are not about officer promotions.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#254

Post by cjslep » Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #183

dvdhnt wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely, you aren't comparing mass murder, likely an international crime, to spray painting a building or stealing a TV? Property != people. People > property. Period. Nothing else to consider. Additionally, it's fairly common for security forces to instigate criminal behavior during protests in order to justify the extreme measures they use to suppress those protests.

> ...spray painting a building or stealing a TV? I'm not going to step into what is clearly an emotional argument for you, but I will say that downplaying what's going on in Minneapolis does not lend you any credibility. Social housing units, and hundreds of locally owned businesses have been rubbled and torched; and retailers have watched basically all of their inventory walk out the door (last time they bother sett…

If you want to play the anecdote game: There's also a local Indian Restaurant whose owner was on the phone with the police while watching it burn on the local news, and he basically said "Let it burn. If that's what it takes to get justice."

Insurance will replace the buildings and stuff. Insurance can't bring George back, nor can it undo a bad system.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#255

Post by outworlder » Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #31

king_magic wrote: post #7

I don't really see the issue here with a surveillance drone to help keep the peace. I don't really care if it's "military technology" or not. Look, what happened was absolutely awful. People have a right to protest - and should, but peacefully. Riots, looting, burning buildings? Sorry, that's going to far. If the government starts firing rockets at people from that drone - well that's another story. But that is clear…

Others have mentioned the air-to-ground missile problem, but my question is: “what does CBP have to do with this?” Border Patrol’s job is to, unsurprisingly, patrol the border , as in, the national border. Even with the “100 mile zone”, Minneapolis is more than 200 miles inland.

Well, are there any international airports in a 100 mile radius of Minneapolis?

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#256

Post by chishaku » Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

holler wrote: post #218

armitron wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be absolutely honest. Who the President may be at any moment in time is totally irrelevant in US being (not becoming, it's already there) an authoritarian police state.

How is the US a police state? Can you give examples? In this case even, the police officers were responding to a 911 call from a store clerk that claimed a man matching Floyd’s description had attempted to use counterfeit money (crime) and was acting erratically. So, they were doing their job in responding to that call.

> they were doing their job in responding to that call.

People aren't angry because they responded to the call.

Watch this video in case you haven't:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/05/29/george-floyd-kneele...

> How is the US a police state?

There's not a simple yes or no answer to this question. But if you sincerely want to understand where people are coming from when they make the claim, you ought to do some research.

I'll give you a head start. Try googling:

"police spying without warrant"

"stop and frisk"

"police perjury"

"police license plate readers"

"police phone data"

Also, check out organizations like the ACLU, EFF and many others who work very hard to prevent the US becoming a police state.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#257

Post by testbot123 » Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #250

testbot123 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're failing to understand that the ordered system of justice that you're prescribing only works for a small portion of (wealthy, powerful) American society, because the processes of that order are intertwined with a systematic, institutionalized effort to deprive minorities of rights. People are fed up with trying to work inside of a system that barely considers them human.

[flagged]

> your kind of rhetoric is directly adjacent to the standard communist revolutionary rhetoric employed across e.g. South America.

Yeah, I'm a Marxist. I align with many (not all) ideas about proletarian revolution.

> Amazing that people actually believe this, when there's literally laws on the books making it a crime to commit an offense against protected classes of people because of their race alone.

We've seen how powerful people, the wealthy, politicians, and law enforcement have time and again broken laws and attempted to circumvent them for their own gain or to preserve the established order.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#258

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #103

wafn wrote: post #35

Pretty sure there are laws against mass arson, looting, rioting, vandalism, etc. so if the people can't follow laws why should the government?

Preserving the rule of law is one of the most fundamental reasons for government to even exist. It's predicated upon the idea that sometimes people break the law, and it's better for there to be due process administered by a judicial system than for there to be anarchy. If this is going to become a people vs. the government type issue, where the government isn't expected to be any better than looters, then the looter…

Agreed in general. In real life it can quickly become quite messy. For example, I have zero issues with HK rioting after all other venues are exhausted. It is difficult for me to argue that HK is magically different from the rest of the world. I do not advocate violence, but I understand the instinct to inflict pain after pain is inflicted upon you. The sooner we understand that, the sooner we can make it a little less bad place to live in.

That said, rioters here seem more like opportunists than protesters..

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#259

Post by klmadfejno » Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

diob wrote: post #128

joshmn wrote: post #3

Native Minnesotan here — living in Minneapolis — that has lived on both coasts: With all that's happening the last few days, please don't generally associate Minnesotans with the violent riots that have captured the attention of everyone. The peacefulness of the protests and gatherings has been overshadowed by the violence. There are countless examples of Minnesotans standing up to those who choose to loot and destro…

I just want to point out that you're wrong to say these places "didn't do anything". Or rather, I would contend that they did do something, aka nothing, which is what led to this situation. "First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is…

That's a great quote, thanks for sharing that. Long, thoughtful, and almost certainly a real quotation for once.

I think there's a strong naivety in liberal perspectives on non-violence. Liberal successes like the civil rights movement were finalized and won by non-violent leaders like MLK, and so he has been championed as a hero who represents the values that won the day. Students in school are taught that "the good guys" follow his approach. MLK is, without a doubt, a social hero to a very high degree. However, there's a HUGE other side to the civil rights movement. The state is incentivized to work with non-violent leaders because the alternative is credible threats of violence. When the bulk of the population thinks violence is never an option, your non violent offering loses its teeth.

You don't need to advocate for violence. But if it happens, focus on the root cause and empathize with why people are driven to this.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#260

Post by TallGuyShort » Fri, May 29, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #258

TallGuyShort wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preserving the rule of law is one of the most fundamental reasons for government to even exist. It's predicated upon the idea that sometimes people break the law, and it's better for there to be due process administered by a judicial system than for there to be anarchy. If this is going to become a people vs. the government type issue, where the government isn't expected to be any better than looters, then the looter…

Agreed in general. In real life it can quickly become quite messy. For example, I have zero issues with HK rioting after all other venues are exhausted. It is difficult for me to argue that HK is magically different from the rest of the world. I do not advocate violence, but I understand the instinct to inflict pain after pain is inflicted upon you. The sooner we understand that, the sooner we can make it a little le…

And there's definitely some shady stuff going on with the videos of the person who broke windows at AutoZone.

Unfortunately, I think the police department's handling of this has only encouraged rioting. I would give them the benefit of the doubt if the officer was suspended pending an investigation or review. But he was fired. That's a mountain of paperwork and HR involvement - so they were probably pretty certain they couldn't defend what he did. But they didn't arrest him, which I'm pretty is less of a bureaucratic headache, until after the rioting.

Maybe someone can give a plausible and reasonable explanation for that sequence of events, but from where I'm sitting this just screams "rioting got our attention".