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US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

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Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#211

Post by mikem170 »

Thriptic wrote: post #59
wafn wrote: post #35

Pretty sure there are laws against mass arson, looting, rioting, vandalism, etc. so if the people can't follow laws why should the government?

Under your logic, any time the government breaks a law and harms me, I am automatically entitled to disregard the law as well and retaliate. If government can't follow the law, why should the people? It's pretty easy to see why we don't want to live in a society where rule of law is disregarded.

>Under your logic, any time the government breaks a law and harms me, I am automatically entitled to disregard the law as well and retaliate.

I would reword that to say "any time the government breaks a law and harms me, I HAVE THE OPTION to disregard the law as well and retaliate."

That's just the way it is. It may be stupid to fight your government, but if they beat you down enough you may look at that as your best option.

The question I have about your statement is what do you expect an oppressed people are supposed to do when nothing else works?

Telling them to continue to work within a system that has failed them for hundreds of years seems to be the equivalent of telling them that you don't want to change the status quo.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#212

Post by remarkEon »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #194
remarkEon wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another fellow Minnesotan here and former Minneapolis resident (used to live a mile away from Hiawatha and Lake back in the day). >Characterizing what is happening as an edge case is a huge mistake. People do not spontaneously start protesting with so much anger if it hasn't built up over so long. These protests are at least partly drummed up by out of state agitators, and are implicitly condoned by a feckless and we…

> These protests are at least partly drummed up by out of state agitators This is a scary response. We saw, today, a black CNN reporter arrested by state police on live television. If that’s how an educated, gently-speaking, Constitutionally-protected member of the press is treated, there is a root issue festering. Blaming it on agitators deflects from introspection. A big part of the problem is Minneapolis’s moderat…

If you watched an of the live feeds from the last two nights there are plenty of people who announce that they're from e.g. Nebraska and part of some Antifa faction.

>A big part of the problem is Minneapolis’s moderates have turned a blind eye to the problems in their police force for years.

I don't understand how people can honestly think this is true. The Police Commissioner is literally the guy from Internal Affairs who filed a lawsuit against the city for not promoting black officers fast enough. The state attorney general is the guy who has proudly photographed himself with an anarchist handbook. All across state and local government in Minnesota you find people who are, allegedly, the kind that are supposed to address the "civic neglect" you assume to exist. What more do you want?

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#213

Post by testbot123 »

remarkEon wrote: post #184
testbot123 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a p…

Ah, yes, I'm in the wrong here because I hope for order and not chaos. And someone will pull an MLK quote out of a hat to say as much.

You're failing to understand that the ordered system of justice that you're prescribing only works for a small portion of (wealthy, powerful) American society, because the processes of that order are intertwined with a systematic, institutionalized effort to deprive minorities of rights. People are fed up with trying to work inside of a system that barely considers them human.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#214

Post by LanceH »

coryrc wrote: post #166
meragrin_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all probability, union rules stand in the way of making any quick arrests. Their hands are tied. It is better for them to appear slow and do things by the book than try to appease the irrational mob. They'll eventually get to where the mob wants to go rather than ending up with the cops "winning" in some way due violations of union rules and procedures.

> union rules stand in the way of making any quick arrests It's almost like it's some sort of systemic problem

I don't think union rules can prevent someone from being arrested. Rules definitely can't stop a warrant from being issued.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#215

Post by dmitrygr »

daeken wrote: post #82
joshmn wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand is why many of these small businesses — which have items of value to many people — were targeted. To me, that's burning to burn, damaging to damage, and looting to loot. https://www.startribune.com/these-minneapolis-st-paul-buildi... This is my home. I visit many of these businesses. I do business with two owners on that list. There are groups of people out here who, yes, are looting to loot a…

To some extent, they were burned/looted/otherwise harmed because they were there. But on the other hand, you have things like this experimental Target whose whole purpose in that (very impoverished) neighborhood was to develop new LP techniques, aimed at putting more people of color in prison: https://twitter.com/IanColdwater/status/1265867904844693505 Target is complicit in this systemic disease; I have zero sympath…

Isn't LP more about "Loss Prevention"? I am pretty sure Target does not care about imprisoning anyone.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#216

Post by pornel »

new_realist wrote: post #154

Surveillance of the police by the public is good, police body cams are good, but airborne public surveillance of everyone is bad? If so, why?

Imbalance of power.

Body cams are meant make the police accountable to the people. Mass surveillance gives power to the government to track and squash dissent.

It's the same reason we demand transparency from governments, and privacy for the people.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#217

Post by holler »

jorblumesea wrote: post #86
armitron wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be absolutely honest. Who the President may be at any moment in time is totally irrelevant in US being (not becoming, it's already there) an authoritarian police state.

> Who the President may be at any moment in time is totally irrelevant in US being This is not the case and has never been the case. Presidents have different interpretations of executive powers. Trump clearly has an extremely authoritarian take on where the President sits in our government. This is plainly obvious for everyone to see and a very non-controversial observation.

can you qualify these strong assertions? “plainly obvious for everyone to see” isn’t a convincing instrument. The role and powers bestowed on the President are set in the US Constitution.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#218

Post by holler »

armitron wrote: post #84
jorblumesea wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems like everyday the country is falling further into the pit of becoming an authoritarian police state. Let's be honest, the country is voting to become an authoritarian police state. US voters have historically had a flirtatious relationship with strong authoritarian style presidents. Trump just more openly so than others. When you look at voting patterns over the last 40 years, it's pretty clear we've been…

Let's be absolutely honest. Who the President may be at any moment in time is totally irrelevant in US being (not becoming, it's already there) an authoritarian police state.

How is the US a police state? Can you give examples? In this case even, the police officers were responding to a 911 call from a store clerk that claimed a man matching Floyd’s description had attempted to use counterfeit money (crime) and was acting erratically. So, they were doing their job in responding to that call.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#219

Post by sokoloff »

meragrin_ wrote: post #121
dv_dt wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this is too political, but the only tool they actually needed was one they had the whole time. Charge the offices based upon the evidence and open a more detailed investigation. The military equipment was entirely unnecessary - but it's very availability makes opportunity for bad decisions.

In all probability, union rules stand in the way of making any quick arrests. Their hands are tied. It is better for them to appear slow and do things by the book than try to appease the irrational mob. They'll eventually get to where the mob wants to go rather than ending up with the cops "winning" in some way due violations of union rules and procedures.

If union rules delay the arrest of an accused officer for any amount of time longer than a civilian charged with the same offense and same facts, it seems reasonable that that union rule should be abolished.

I suspect it's not actually the case and there was some amount of calculation of the ex-officer's risk of flight, the likelihood that he would further offend, and the need to get some forensics, autopsy, and preliminary tox screen results.

In other words, if a civilian under the same set of facts would have also been arrested 4 days later, I'm fine with it. One criminal standard for everyone. Union rules don't have any place superseding criminal laws (and I haven't seen anyone presenting credible evidence that they do).

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#220

Post by freeone3000 »

nickff wrote: post #131
testbot123 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hurting their fellow innocents Are you talking about property damage, or actual violence like police killing unarmed black folks?

I am talking about the potential for injury (as always exists with fires, looting, and the like, here exemplified by the wheelchair-bound woman sprayed with a fire extinguisher), as well as the property damage, which often causes stress and emotional injury. It's also easy to forget that the people most harmed by looting are usually members of the (original) victims' own communities.

Maybe if she didn't want to be sprayed with a fire extinguisher she shouldn't have stabbed shoplifters with a knife.
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