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Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

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Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#411

Post by mthoms »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #406
GhostVII wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reason why this seems more likely to be malice is because the CEO's initial reaction to the backlash was not to listen to and understand the feedback, but to repeatedly try and justify their actions. To go from commenting all over hacker news about how you aren't doing anything wrong, to sending out an email completely reversing your decision a couple days later, makes it seem like the apology was more mo…

I was on the original thread. He made a few comments over the course of a couple hours, if that. He wasn’t “all over Hacker News”.

You're right that the CEO wasn't “all over Hacker News”.

But the parent is indeed correct in implying that the comments he did make were anything but receptive or conciliatory.

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#412

Post by grawprog »

mosselman wrote: post #140
photonios wrote: post #33

I am not an active Triplebyte user, but I have an account and followed the thread(s). This e-mail (which I also got) seems like a heartfelt apology. They fucked up, realized it and turned the ship around. They listened and that's what counts for me. They listened to the negative feedback and responded to it. Some comments around here are extremely negative of the whole situation. More negative than I think they deser…

> This e-mail (which I also got) seems like a heartfelt apology. Even if it is heartfelt, I'd argue that if no alarm bells went off internally when they were discussing this feature, they are not the group of people to entrust with information such as this.

People do make mistakes. Sometimes people really do just fuck up. We're only human. All of us. Whether you're a CEO or just a worker. Whether it's even heartfelt or not, it's nice to see someone without any bullshit or wishy washy words, just straight up say, sorry everyone, i really fucked up.

Personally, i appreciate the honesty from people, whether they mean it or not, it still takes some bit of honour and humbleness to openly admit your mistake. It's not an easy thing to do and i can appreciate the effort it takes to come out and just straight up say 'yeah i'm an idiot and i fucked up pretty bad.'

Plus, the way i look at it, you always have to remember, no matter how badly you fuck up, you're not that dude that fucked up the space station and caused a slow oxygen leak that had to be repaired with a risky space walk and even he was forgiven...probably.

ETA: Just to add to this as i've thought of it. Years ago, somebody i knew stole a few hundred dollars from me and disappeared. I thought i'd never hear from him again. A couple years later i got a random phonecall from him. He didn't have my money or anything, but he had the guts to call me and apologize and admit he'd just straight up ripped me off. I've never heard from him since and i'd never trust him again, but i respect the nerve it took for him to do that.

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#413

Post by GhostVII »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #406
GhostVII wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reason why this seems more likely to be malice is because the CEO's initial reaction to the backlash was not to listen to and understand the feedback, but to repeatedly try and justify their actions. To go from commenting all over hacker news about how you aren't doing anything wrong, to sending out an email completely reversing your decision a couple days later, makes it seem like the apology was more mo…

I was on the original thread. He made a few comments over the course of a couple hours, if that. He wasn’t “all over Hacker News”.

Yea that's fair

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#414

Post by austhrow743 »

akerl_ wrote: post #306
mosselman wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This e-mail (which I also got) seems like a heartfelt apology. Even if it is heartfelt, I'd argue that if no alarm bells went off internally when they were discussing this feature, they are not the group of people to entrust with information such as this.

Given the prevalence of comments like this, I wonder why any company would ever bother offering an apology or retraction. As soon as a company does something that a chunk of people on the internet don’t agree with, there’s really no way out. They’re going to get bad press regardless of whether they retract, whether they apologize, and whether they say they’re taking actions to avoid the sequence that led to the actio…

You offer an apology because it’s the right thing to do. You fucked up and you want to own it and recognise it. Once you realise what you’ve done, respecting yourself as a man/woman depends on doing it.

It shouldn’t be for gain. In fact if apologies always led to a positive outcome they would mean less and the world would be a worse place for it.

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#415

Post by mthoms »

jacquesm wrote: post #348
woofie11 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi Ammon, 1. There is an opportunity. 2. You did lose a lot of trust. 3. You didn't have enough trust in the first place to really take advantage of this opportunity. I would encourage you to think about how you can earn that trust. This comes back to transparency and checks-and-balances. If you want to go that route, you will need to build hard constraints: legal and technological constraints which would have preven…

This is all spot on. Super good comment, with the exception of the 'shareholder value maximization', that bit is bull and you should stop repeating it.

Genuine question - I'm curious why you consider the "shareholder value" part to be bull? Thanks.

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#416

Post by ryanwaggoner »

mthoms wrote: post #411
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was on the original thread. He made a few comments over the course of a couple hours, if that. He wasn’t “all over Hacker News”.

You're right that the CEO wasn't “all over Hacker News”. But the parent is indeed correct in implying that the comments he did make were anything but receptive or conciliatory.

Right, but that seems completely in keeping with his version of events. They announce this is coming without much consideration and then later he finds himself under scathing attack from HN, reacts badly and leaves some defensive comments, then takes a couple days to think about it, realizes he was wrong, writes a very good apology email.

That all makes sense, this isn’t the end of the world, can we just move on, please?

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#417

Post by lonelappde »

japhyr wrote: post #337
RandomBacon wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in a different industry, but I read the HN thread about it a few days ago. In the CEO's comments, I saw a lot of 'I'm sorry you feel that way' type of apologies. I wrote that he should take responsibility for his own actions. Perhaps he read that and took it to heart. Perhaps he read that and realized it would sound better if it seemed like he took it to heart. Perhaps after the monumental PR screw-up, they hired…

Your comment was the first thing I thought of when reading today's email. I hav worked most of my life as a secondary math and science teacher, and one of the things we teach all students about communication is "I statements." This email is full of sincere I statements. Whether it comes from reading your comment or just reflecting on the whole situation, this is about the best response I could have imagined a few day…

After digging in his heels repeatedly on Friday against a tidal wave of opposition, Ammon found a "how to apologize" book and banged out an apology, while still devoting paragraphs to defending his mistake and selling his origin myth. Even his well researched apologize reeks of narcissism not respect.

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#418

Post by mthoms »

Mandatum wrote: post #410

It takes more than one person to design, approve and implement this feature. Ammon is trying to take the heat for a decision made by multiple people. Right now, Triplebyte on a resume doesn't tell me anything very positive. Why hasn't their VP of Growth or the Product Manager of Growth said anything on the subject? People should be held to account. Working for a startup, it's easy to figure out who's to blame for the…

FWIW, Ammon said elsewhere in this thread that his Product Manager did raise this issue with him and that he dismissed it.

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#419

Post by ryanwaggoner »

woofie11 wrote: post #58
alexpetralia wrote: post #14

This is a very good apology. Yes, it is possible that this is merely the perfunctory apology TripleByte's users were undoubtedly due. It is possible it is entirely inauthentic, a mere artifice for damage control from a reputationally maimed business. But it is also possible that, like all people, the CEO seriously screwed up. There were some bad premises, some bad motives, some bad confirmation bias at play here. Tha…

I'm not sure it matters. TripleByte is asking for super-sensitive information. 10 years down the line, Ammon won't be CEO anymore. No matter how much of a jerk Ammon is, I'm willing to trust-and-verify, so long as they get the and-verify part right. No matter how great a guy Ammon is, I'm not willing to trust without the and-verify part. He might get fired tomorrow, and Steve Ballmer or Carly Fiorina might get brough…

I’m confused: it sounds like you think giving them any data was a mistake before they made this product decision? After all, whatever reputation they had back then to safeguard your data also wouldn’t mean anything to Ballmer or Fiorina, right?

So if it was a bad idea before and it’s a bad idea now, has this whole episode even changed anything for you?

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#420

Post by TomVDB »

akerl_ wrote: post #306
mosselman wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This e-mail (which I also got) seems like a heartfelt apology. Even if it is heartfelt, I'd argue that if no alarm bells went off internally when they were discussing this feature, they are not the group of people to entrust with information such as this.

Given the prevalence of comments like this, I wonder why any company would ever bother offering an apology or retraction. As soon as a company does something that a chunk of people on the internet don’t agree with, there’s really no way out. They’re going to get bad press regardless of whether they retract, whether they apologize, and whether they say they’re taking actions to avoid the sequence that led to the actio…

Check out the original HN topic.

It would be one thing if he apologized immediately after people pointed out the flaws in their plan.

But he didn’t.

He ignored all the objections, and defended his decision over and over again.

He clearly didn’t care.

There is huge difference between “whoops, we didn’t think things through, sorry about that” and “after seeing tons of people cancel their account, let’s pretend that I’m now truly sorry.” Especially when he had a history of building shitty social networks.

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