US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei • Hacker News Board

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#101

Post by mempko » Fri, May 15, 2020, 1:28 PM UTC

Icathian wrote: post #39

mempko wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple of points a) The deal china made with US companies is bring us your technology and we will manufacture for you cheaply. b) Giving technology as part of a deal and then retroactively calling it stealing is, well, strange. c) America because what it was because it "stole" technology from Europe during the industrial revolution. American companies understood what they were getting into and what the de…

You seem to be under the rather odd impression that all of the limitations you agree to when you enter into contract with another entity are supposed to be ignored. Just because you're doing business with someone who has a reputation of breaching faith doesn't mean it's appropriate that they do so, and you certainly don't have to like them for it.

And yet US companies keep going back to China.

Most technological invention is paid for by the US government investment. Name any high technology and it's lineage points back to some government grant or purchase agreement.

Companies that use these inventions and innovate on top to bring them to market are themselves using technology we paid for. But we don't call that "stealing". Do you think they care that China also gets them?

Knowledge should be shared and free anyway.

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#102

Post by JohnTClark » Fri, May 15, 2020, 1:30 PM UTC

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #14

Udik wrote: post #2

This is nothing else than the US panicking over losing their technological and economic supremacy, and using brute force to damage a competitor. Disgusting and very dangerous for the whole world.

Don't know why you're downvoted given that you're correct. The end result of this is to ensure that China develops their own semi conductor industry. Besides the short term loss of sales, in the long term new companies will emerge that compete with the American semi conductor industry. It's just a dumb move all around.

They will develop their own industry but without stealing R&D from the USA.

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#103

Post by ericmay » Fri, May 15, 2020, 1:31 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #95

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

worked for a main competitor of Huawei building UMTS/LTE base stations which at the time weren't even properly standardized (early systems design). Searched for my own name on github. Found source code I wrote for said vendor which was taken from somebody who worked for our Hangzhou office and had access to the same internal VCS[1] as me. The guy downloaded anything he had access to then moved to Huawei and from ther…

Man, I get your point, they did/are doing tons of bad stuff. But so is every-fucking-body else, everywhere. Industrial espionage is a thing for more than a century, everybody tries to steal whatever they can, even US from Europe and vice versa. US secret services help their own private companies get an edge (for some other favors obviously), and so do other secret services. Friendships among nations is a very relativ…

So in that case, then it's surely fine to just block Huawei. It's just a continuation of the same shenanigans that "everybody is doing".

Right?

I think there are certain lines that aren't supposed to be crossed. You'll notice in the U.S. that Uber and Levandowski were sued by Waymo. Why? Because they stole source code. If "everybody is doing it" surely Waymo would just chalk it up to business as usual right?

I guess you could say, well in the U.S. we enforce certain standards blah blah... exactly. There are certain standards. You can play dirty within certain limits. The U.S. doesn't have a national policy of having companies steal stuff from trading partners. If I, as a U.S. citizen, started hacking into Chinese companies and stealing their source code, set up an operation to call and scam old Chinese ladies out of their life savings, or any of that I'd be in serious shit. In China it's business as usual because the CCP has an unofficial policy of "steal as much as possible and fuck em".

I really don't like when people try and normalize CCP actions or equate their actions with the U.S. or Europe for that matter. It's nonsense and self-hating.

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#104

Post by mindslight » Fri, May 15, 2020, 1:32 PM UTC

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #70

bildung wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will be very surprised if Huawei would be found guilty of anything. The company plays an important role in actually defining the 5G standard as a member of 3GPP, and holds 3 times the number of 5G patents than Qualcomm. I mean, look at the number of contributions to the 5G standards by company in this document, and compare the positions of Huawei, Qualcomm and Cisco: https://www.iplytics.com/wp-content/uploads/2019…

worked for a main competitor of Huawei building UMTS/LTE base stations which at the time weren't even properly standardized (early systems design). Searched for my own name on github. Found source code I wrote for said vendor which was taken from somebody who worked for our Hangzhou office and had access to the same internal VCS[1] as me. The guy downloaded anything he had access to then moved to Huawei and from ther…

This is classic disruptive innovation at nation state scale.

Imaginary property only worked when all jurisdictions agreed to follow the same rules, and could enforce these rules onto individual actors. Obviously China isn't playing by these rules and has no desire to play by these rules, regardless of any lip service paid. So we can either adjust our own philosophies to better match how the real world operates. Or we can continue trying to force our rules on everyone else, which will end catastrophically when reality finally does catch up.

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#105

Post by 0xfaded » Fri, May 15, 2020, 1:39 PM UTC

LegitShady wrote: post #72

0xfaded wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say it's an unnecessary dilution of national brand power. I know people who refuse to buy things directly from China, yet are perfectly happy buying the same items through a western distributer. That price delta is directly measurable brand equity that ends up as taxable money spent in western economies with no real value add. Pulling this crap only incentives China to develop their own silicon. Since the west ca…

>Pulling this crap only incentives China to develop their own silicon. Operating under the assumption this isnt already a priority to them, which I would say is a big assumption. You're looking at this as if it was in absence of the rest of the trade footings of the two countries. The west is building stuff in this industry - semi conductors. The east is operating heavy industrial espionage to try and steal all the s…

If you're scared of cheap knockoffs, it's exactly the perception that your product is somehow superior that you want. Part of that might be less risk exposure to lawsuits for incorporating stolen IP.

But if you eliminate the legal option, the grey area alternative becomes normalized.

IP is also a highly artificial construct. If all documents were suddenly in the open, and your competitors are suddenly able to build a better product, how comfortable can you be that you can actually compete on quality?

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#106

Post by mark_l_watson » Fri, May 15, 2020, 1:43 PM UTC

rndgermandude wrote: post #48

adventured wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many foreign companies actually use US Chipmaking equipment? In the semi industry, nearly all of them. You can hardly make anything in the semiconductor industry without using several of the major US companies. The US still dominates the semiconductor equipment industry. Of the six major players, half of them are US companies. > The $412bn global semiconductor industry rests on the shoulders of just six equipme…

After this move by the US, it wouldn't surprise me if there soon were 7-9 instead of 6 such companies, and the new entries were Chinese/China-friendly. China has both, money and leverage (not just political, rare earths, etc), to throw at this problem, and from China's perspective it should be a strategic priority to get this done. It would in fact surprise me if there weren't such projects already in full drive sinc…

You have brought up my largest concern over weaponizing IP and means of production. This might help Trump’s ability to win a second term, but I argue that long term we are forcing China and large parts of the world to develop their own tech and become stronger competitors.

I know that our system of government does not optimize long term gain, but this case seems especially bad.

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#107

Post by theredbox » Fri, May 15, 2020, 1:44 PM UTC

As someone who is not an american nor a chinese nor from a big European nation this is all frightening to watch.

It's an invisible war of nations and we dont really have a clue about allegiances nor what is right or wrong.

Sure as a european I feel more connected to the US but at the same time I feel very much excluded from that larger sphere protection and benefits.

The US needs a framework for smaller nations where we can build better relations.

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#108

Post by boomboomsubban » Fri, May 15, 2020, 1:45 PM UTC

jtdev wrote: post #88

boomboomsubban wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>With the perspective of COVID19, China seems like a threat to the global community This does not make any sense to me. Though I do not approve of all of the actions China took at the start of the pandemic, I can not understand how you can consider them a threat over it. Also McDonald's?

Have you not considered that China made an exerted effort to withhold information about COVID19 from the world... How is that not an act of aggression? Hundreds of thousands dead... Golden Arches Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lexus_and_the_Olive_Tree

>Have you not considered that China made an exerted effort to withhold information about COVID19 from the world? How is that not an act of aggression?

Though I have issues with some of the early reporting, I do not think their aim was to attack the rest of the world. At worst, which I'm still not convinced of, it was prioritizing their own citizens over others. Hardly an act of aggression.

>Hundreds of thousands dead.

Presumably you live in the US. If killing hundreds of thousands makes you a threat unworthy of influence you might want to look at our actions. Or consider what the results of your desired actions against the Chinese might be.

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#109

Post by boomboomsubban » Fri, May 15, 2020, 1:48 PM UTC

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #90

boomboomsubban wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This after previous indictments of Huawei for RICO violations and theft of trade secrets from USA companies T-Mobile, Qualcomm, and Cisco Refusing to sell chips to them incentivizes further theft of intellectual property. If these two things are linked, this seems like a terrible strategy.

we shouldn't punish a thief because they might steal even more? that doesn't sound right.

>we shouldn't punish a thief because they might steal even more?

We shouldn't punish theft in a way where stealing now becomes their best option to survive.

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#110

Post by billfruit » Fri, May 15, 2020, 1:48 PM UTC

gpm wrote: post #35

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty difficult to take the accusations of theft of 5G technology seriously, when Huawei is far ahead of its competitors and has massively outspent them on R&D for 5G. > Was she ever extradited from Canada after being captured in Vancouver, BC? No, it's still a giant political mess. The Canadian government wishes they had never gotten involved - they should have just let her slip. With the US and China, Canada…

> The Canadian government wishes they had never gotten involved - they should have just let her slip. With the US and China, Canada is between a rock and a hard place. Source on this? I certainly haven't heard the government say anything to this effect. As a Canadian I certainly do not wish we had "just let her slip". We're a country of laws. We should follow those laws, not just give in to pressure from China becaus…

I doub't her detainment had anything at all to do about Canada, so in this case Canada was, it appeared merely toeing the US line, rather than having a specific stake in the matter.

Really though the crux of the matter is wether Meng is held due to a real criminality as per Canadian/US law, or is being held as a political move, and signals from both US and Canadian administration has been confusing in this regard. Some statements from US and administrations give a feeling that she's being held for political reasons.

"Several well-known Canadians, including former prime minister Jean Chrétien and former foreign minister John Manley, have suggested that Canada let Meng go or orchestrate a “prisoner exchange” with China."

From WaPo on this issue:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/extraditio...