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We Chat, They Watch

citizenlab.ca

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Re: We Chat, They Watch

#151

Post by TallGuyShort »

nyolfen wrote: post #124
TallGuyShort wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you define the characteristics of a communist dictatorship that are relevant here? Not the economic ones per se, but the ones that make you nervous about spying and media control.

putting minorities in concentration camps and state sanctioned ip theft are probably worth considering

So like, the way America did with the Japanese? And I support enforcement of borders, but the conditions for detention of illegal immigrants has drawn recent comparisons. Not as bad as communist countries, of course, but not much of a moral high ground either.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#153

Post by philliphaydon »

idra wrote: post #146
yingliu4203 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Chinese-Americans have no choice when they need to communicate with family and friend living in China. No outside communication tools allowed in China.

"Have no choice" is false. Fortunately, email still works. As does any messenger through a VPN. Using Wechat is simply being complicit with censorship out of laziness.

> As does any messenger through a VPN

Except VPNs are illegal in china. If a site is banned in china. Using a VPN to circumvent the law is breaking the law.

Email is not secure.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#154

Post by dleslie »

kccqzy wrote: post #141
TechBro8615 wrote: post #98

It’s worth noting that Facebook Messenger also intercepts and filters messages. For example, it’s impossible to send a message containing the link “joebiden.info”. On the mobile app, it will simply say “failed to send.” On desktop, it will tell you the link violates its “community standards” and cannot be shared.

The differences are: (1) with Facebook it's a private company doing the censoring and there's no issue with that, no First Amendment issues at all, unlike WeChat where the censoring is heavily linked to the government; (2) Facebook at least tells you when a message can't be sent but WeChat fails silently.

It must be rather nice to feel so assured that this alleged separation of state and industry exists; as though the line between state and society, particularly industry, is all that clear.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#155

Post by kube-system »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #98

It’s worth noting that Facebook Messenger also intercepts and filters messages. For example, it’s impossible to send a message containing the link “joebiden.info”. On the mobile app, it will simply say “failed to send.” On desktop, it will tell you the link violates its “community standards” and cannot be shared.

Very very few messaging platforms operate without any kind of censorship. Censorship, by itself, is not particularly worrisome, especially when done by first or second parties to the conversation.

The problems arise when the censorship is compelled by third parties who are using it for their own benefit, rather than the benefit of others.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#157

Post by TallGuyShort »

MattGaiser wrote: post #120
TallGuyShort wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you define the characteristics of a communist dictatorship that are relevant here? Not the economic ones per se, but the ones that make you nervous about spying and media control.

A state that is not above its own law.

So generally, you feel that when the executive branch exceeds it's power or circumvents checks and balances, that those responsible are prosecuted?

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#158

Post by devtul »

fiblye wrote: post #121
yingliu4203 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Chinese-Americans have no choice when they need to communicate with family and friend living in China. No outside communication tools allowed in China.

Outside of China, we're pretty lucky that we can just register for random sites like HN with nothing more than a username and password and start talking. Every Chinese site I've ever used requires phone number or ID verification. Most of them only allow Chinese-registered phones, meaning it's absolutely impossible to communicate with Chinese people from the outside world, aside from a very small number of carefully v…

We will give our freedoms away in name of preventing toxicity and hate speech. Won't you feel good you are helping squash bigots by giving your PII away

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#159

Post by edmundsauto »

cyphar wrote: post #107
forgot_again wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The false equivalency also begs a deeper moral analysis. Let's assume the US government has as complete access to iMessage and WhatsApp as the CCP does to WeChat. The story doesn't end there, since you have to examine the nature of the entities that have access to your information. Would I prefer that access be held by the US Government, which for all its faults is extremely engaged with and integrated into the globa…

I disagree with several aspects of your depiction of the US's "robust court system" (especially in the case of mass surveillance). There have been several attempts by citizens to sue the US Government for their illegal and indiscriminate surveillance programs, but have been stonewalled for years by government lawyers arguing that such cases should not happen in public courts (where they could be held accountable) due…

Do you feel the same way about, say, Russian surveillance? Would you rather be surveilled by Russia than the US, by the same logic?

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#160

Post by rollschild »

Between me and my girlfriend we use Signal. But for talking to anyone else I have no choice but use WeChat. I just either don't have the power to persuade others to use a more secure app, or they just don't care, or the cost of switching to another app is too high. It's (relatively) easy to develop an alternative with no censorship and pretty secure. The hard part is to make it popular and avoid getting blocked in China.
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