Live data from Hacker News

We Chat, They Watch

citizenlab.ca

101–110 of 555 posts

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#101
post #36
post #3

Did anyone actually think WeChat communications are secure? Do we have reason to believe iMessage and Whatsapp are more secure?

This narrative of false equivalency is dangerous, IMO. WeChat has been proven to be a heavily monitored and censored network. Whatever security failings iMessage and WhatsApp have, they pale in comparison to what's in place for WeChat.

I totally agree. When you employ lossy compression to reduce a multidimensional assessment of degree and kind of risk to a single bit ("Do any potential risks exist, yes or no?") you are deleting almost all information that can be used for risk assessment. Presumably you would do so either because you genuinely think there is only one bit worth considering or you prefer others not think about the other bits.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#103
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This narrative of false equivalency is dangerous, IMO. WeChat has been proven to be a heavily monitored and censored network. Whatever security failings iMessage and WhatsApp have, they pale in comparison to what's in place for WeChat.

The false equivalency also begs a deeper moral analysis. Let's assume the US government has as complete access to iMessage and WhatsApp as the CCP does to WeChat. The story doesn't end there, since you have to examine the nature of the entities that have access to your information. Would I prefer that access be held by the US Government, which for all its faults is extremely engaged with and integrated into the globa…

This depends on your point of view, of course. If you're a US citizen with US legal protections and representatives in US government and access to US lawyers, you might find that reassuring. From the outside, the picture of the modern US is not nearly as pretty.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#106
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WhatsApp is end-to-end encrypted so the service providers themselves can't read the message content, yes, definitely. Although, technically the security guarantees are nil unless you verify safety numbers which I can guarantee almost nobody actually does.

>> WhatsApp is end-to-end encrypted so the service providers themselves can't read the message content, yes, definitely. Although, technically the security guarantees are nil unless you verify safety numbers which I can guarantee almost nobody actually does. Except that there is no way to prove this. There is no way to prove that it isn't also sending a copy from the client back to the server. Whatsapp could deploy i…

> Whatsapp could deploy individualized specific clients to target users, perhaps at the behest of governments.

How can Facebook/WhatsApp do this on Android or iPhone?

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#107
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This narrative of false equivalency is dangerous, IMO. WeChat has been proven to be a heavily monitored and censored network. Whatever security failings iMessage and WhatsApp have, they pale in comparison to what's in place for WeChat.

The false equivalency also begs a deeper moral analysis. Let's assume the US government has as complete access to iMessage and WhatsApp as the CCP does to WeChat. The story doesn't end there, since you have to examine the nature of the entities that have access to your information. Would I prefer that access be held by the US Government, which for all its faults is extremely engaged with and integrated into the globa…

I disagree with several aspects of your depiction of the US's "robust court system" (especially in the case of mass surveillance). There have been several attempts by citizens to sue the US Government for their illegal and indiscriminate surveillance programs, but have been stonewalled for years by government lawyers arguing that such cases should not happen in public courts (where they could be held accountable) due to "national security risks". Not to mention that the NSA has their own interpretation of the US Constitution which completely twists the meaning of "collection" to allow indiscriminate mass surveillance to not be seen as "unreasonable search and seizure". Then there's the whole FISA court system, which rejects so few requests that it is in every sense of the word a rubber stamp court. And even if the court system is "robust" -- let's not forget that the PATRIOT Act exists (though it turns out that the NSA actually violated even the minimal restrictions present in the PATRIOT Act).

Now, is China any better? Of course not, and the CCP has countless policies which are far worse to their own people than the US. But the key question is -- do you live in or have any connection to China? If not, then I would go with the CCP surveillance because there is no obvious mechanism for such surveillance to harm you directly. On the other hand, if you live in a 5-EYES country (as I do), any data obtained from US surveillance can be used in parallel construction (or other not-entirely-legal methods). Hell, here in Australia our mass surveillance systems have been used to punish minor infringements such as littering.

Obviously I'd prefer not to be surveilled at all, but between the two I'd choose the one that has the smallest threat of direct impact on my life.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not yet anyway - remember his “listening” campaign and seeming murmurs of entering politics. He’s still young, unlike Winnie the Pooh...

Even if he did enter politics (in America), it’s not at all the same thing.

I wouldn’t trust him not to use all the tools at his disposal to grasp the levers of power. He’s a stone sociopath IHMO.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#109
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't trust the privacy of any of those services, but there is a huge difference between "the government can subpoena information, or do targeted sniffing if you dont encrypt anything" and "we have a cron job set up that send everything directly to a government server for the express purpose of suppressing speech" To be clear, those services are lame for being as untrustworthy as I believe they are, but let's not e…

Sniffing by the US government isn't that targeted. And the US does harass people who say stuff they don't like, and has a long history of doing this. Were just not executing/jailing that many of them right now.

If that's the case, I've got a Facebook feed full of people they missed.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#110
post #90

Honestly curious: knowing what everyone knows, why would any person who is not of Chinese origin, use WeChat? What's the use case?

To talk to friends or family that are in China.

> To talk to friends or family that are in China.

I'm assuming you mean of not-Chinese origin, basically expats. Yes?

Are there no other options? Are no non-Chinese messengers allowed in China?

Post reply on HN