I don't understand how to deal with deniers anymore. I've tried sharing a lot of explanations/articles/videos to the "tis just a flu, bro" crowd from my friends and this convinced nobody. I guess showing even this fact/statistic would do nothing too. Is there a cure or a method to convert such dense crowd? (well, besides bashing their heads with something heavy)
The leading cause of death in the US on Apr 6 was Covid-19
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Re: The leading cause of death in the US on Apr 6 was Covid-19
#62I don't understand how to deal with deniers anymore. I've tried sharing a lot of explanations/articles/videos to the "tis just a flu, bro" crowd from my friends and this convinced nobody. I guess showing even this fact/statistic would do nothing too. Is there a cure or a method to convert such dense crowd? (well, besides bashing their heads with something heavy)
> bro crowd ...
> dense crowd ...
> bashing their heads ...
Maybe it's your tone?
Re: The leading cause of death in the US on Apr 6 was Covid-19
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
First of all, I'm not a medical professional! I think it's impossible (with the current state of technology) to determine the actual cause in patients with comorbidities. The patients died _with_ coronavirus in these statistics rather than _from_ coronavirus. Anyway, it's hard to argue with those people. But if you look at the average deaths a country has per month, and see the increase because of Covid, you should b…
Not a medical professional as well, but I can imagine a picture of a patient dying from coronavirus - say, due to the lung failure - should be quite different from the one dying from the heart disease. Shouldn't it?
People have a tendency to look for 'one' cause for an outcome. Sometimes there's just multiple causes I think.
Re: The leading cause of death in the US on Apr 6 was Covid-19
#64Since the other causes of death remain static in this chart, its hard to tell if Covid-19 are new cases or "take away from other causes" (and by what percentage). Would be interesting to see daily chart of Covid-19 deaths as % of total deaths and daily total deaths. PS. Extra points - number of deaths due to lockdowns (suicides, unaccessible healthcare, etc)
https://gothamist.com/news/surge-number-new-yorkers-dying-ho...
Re: The leading cause of death in the US on Apr 6 was Covid-19
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
All the other, regular preventable things don’t grow exponentially and as rapid as COVID-19 does.
I’m talking about the death toll at the end of the day, not the current death toll. I’m talking about the likely maximum number to ever be infected (roughly herd immunity number) multiplied by the percentage of people that the virus kills. I understand exponential growth. People who have their own opinions are not necessarily suffering from a lack of math knowledge.
Herd immunity would still mean millions of dead people you'd have to step over.
The countries that thought they could go this route did a hard reverse once reality hit them.
Re: The leading cause of death in the US on Apr 6 was Covid-19
#66I don't understand how to deal with deniers anymore. I've tried sharing a lot of explanations/articles/videos to the "tis just a flu, bro" crowd from my friends and this convinced nobody. I guess showing even this fact/statistic would do nothing too. Is there a cure or a method to convert such dense crowd? (well, besides bashing their heads with something heavy)
Actually the “flu bro” crowd has some really good points. For me, it’s impossible to ignore the inconsistency. Imagine tens of thousands of people standing before you before they perish gruesomely. These people who died of preventable things other than covid 19, are ignored by society — nobody cares. You aren’t considered a murderer for going to work with the flu (but you technically are) and you aren’t considered ir…
Should we be lucky enough for Covid-19 to have the same disease burden as the worst flu season as of late, and not the disease burden it's actually projected to have, several orders of magnitude more people will die than they would from the flu. So no, compared to 7 billion, they are not basically the same.
Your "really good points" hinge on a shaky understanding of statistics at best, or just outright ignoring the available data at worst.
Re: The leading cause of death in the US on Apr 6 was Covid-19
#67the link to the data for the CDC does not seem to match the graph...perhaps im reading this wrong? https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm if we're mapping based on the 2018 numbers the CDC provide then 49925 per month or ~12k per week is the cancer rate... Diabetes is around 1700, not 200.
Re: The leading cause of death in the US on Apr 6 was Covid-19
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
First of all, I'm not a medical professional! I think it's impossible (with the current state of technology) to determine the actual cause in patients with comorbidities. The patients died _with_ coronavirus in these statistics rather than _from_ coronavirus. Anyway, it's hard to argue with those people. But if you look at the average deaths a country has per month, and see the increase because of Covid, you should b…
Not a medical professional as well, but I can imagine a picture of a patient dying from coronavirus - say, due to the lung failure - should be quite different from the one dying from the heart disease. Shouldn't it?
Heart failure causes a drop of oxygen in the blood, which leads to multiple organ failure. Direct cause of death is often kidney shutdown.
Re: The leading cause of death in the US on Apr 6 was Covid-19
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually the “flu bro” crowd has some really good points. For me, it’s impossible to ignore the inconsistency. Imagine tens of thousands of people standing before you before they perish gruesomely. These people who died of preventable things other than covid 19, are ignored by society — nobody cares. You aren’t considered a murderer for going to work with the flu (but you technically are) and you aren’t considered ir…
This appeared to cross some threshold where it really scared people. Personally, the flu scared me. Motor vehicle deaths and hospital acquired infections also terrified me. Those were already above my personal threshold where I thought the risk was pretty bad. I would already maintain a wide berth around anyone coughing or visibly sick. There's also some paranoia because this is new, and because of the fear of asympt…
Re: The leading cause of death in the US on Apr 6 was Covid-19
#70I don't understand how to deal with deniers anymore. I've tried sharing a lot of explanations/articles/videos to the "tis just a flu, bro" crowd from my friends and this convinced nobody. I guess showing even this fact/statistic would do nothing too. Is there a cure or a method to convert such dense crowd? (well, besides bashing their heads with something heavy)
The first is hierarchy - most people get their idea of true/false right/wrong through the social structure they're embedded in, and from who they consider senior and look up to. This is pretty fixed even if the senior figure gets something conspicuously wrong.
The second is consistency; beliefs usually come in sets, and they're often tied together by being supported by the same sources (see above). And it's especially tempting to have a consistent set of beliefs that happen to be wrong, rather than deal with the messy inconsistency and uncertainty of the real world. This is why people don't get partially deprogrammed from cults.
The third is loyalty and identity group membership; this is the peer-to-peer version of "hierarchy" above. Disagreement is an attack on the peer group. The extreme version of this is seen in religions who will ostracise unbelievers. If you want to stop being a Mormon or a JW you may have to walk away from everyone you've ever known.
"Sources" are fairly useless in this situation unless you can find one that's already inside the target's perception of loyalty and hierarchy. Anything from outside can be easily dismissed.