Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#81

Post by qayxc » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 1:24 PM UTC

linuxftw wrote: post #77

qayxc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let’s be honest: majority of users will cause more harm than do good when repairing something. What kind of argument is that? Right to repair isn't about you and me fiddling about with with broken appliances. It's about qualified and licensed people in repair shops being able to acquire parts and schematics to do their job. No one is arguing that your average Jane or Joe should be ones doing the repair! That's just…

> qualified and licensed people in repair shops In the US, anyone can repair a vehicle and not void the warranty. No license needed.

Same in Europe and still completely besides the point. Also, this argument keeps ignoring that the ominous "anybody" is required to have access to a repair shop, tools, and the skills required.

Once you take into account all these factors it quickly becomes apparent that not "anybody" will repair cars, appliances, and electronics by themselves; regardless of legislation.

The people who do care (farmers in the US, electronics repair shops, that dude on YT who repairs Teslas, ...) incidentally are the ones with the skills, the tools, and the incentive.

The licensed part comes into play as soon damage regulation due to improper use/repair occurs. This isn't a concern for private individuals (in the car example: there's a mandatory in-depth technical inspection every other year in Europe, so an improper repair results in a failed inspection anyway), though your insurance may become null and void depending on the circumstances.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#82

Post by jeremyjh » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 1:25 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #80

When you buy a physical object, such as a home, a car, a shirt, or a smartphone, shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on -- you know, all the rights and benefits associated with the concept of private ownership ? And when you buy a software object, shouldn't you have the same rights and benefits?

Licensing is not the same as purchasing. I don’t think banning the concept of licensing would be helpful.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#83

Post by nnq » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 1:25 PM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #28

simion314 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is not that you should be able to swap your battery as easy as you can with an Nokia 3310 but that you or a competent person could swap the battery with tools made for that purpose. Also I should have the right to use components from a broken iPhone into a different broken iPhone so I get a working iPhone(and if you claim security then wipe the phone before you allow this swap).

> The idea is not that you should be able to swap your battery as easy as you can with an Nokia 3310 but that you or a competent person could swap the battery with tools made for that purpose. On many modern devices, you don't have "a battery", you have battery cells fit into every available space and wired together. You're certainly welcome to try replacing those. I just don't want to see that reverted to a discrete…

> I just don't want to see that reverted to a discrete battery design.

WHY?! You'd end up with stuff 3-5mm thicker, but basically the same weight. Let's drop the "thinner" fetish once and for all, nobody cares about some mm of "wasted" space (that usually improves cooling anyway) inside a devices case and it being a bit chunkier, as long as it's almost just as lightwieght!

Fffs, let's go back to getting gold plated or diamond encrusted laptops and watches for showing off status! That's way better than the thinner/lighter nonsense...

Sure, getting smth. thinner bc technology actually improves (eg. displays) is cool, but shaving micrometers by packing everything close together is stupid.

(Oh, and we could start fixing our brains to think the same about cases for... people! Eg. housing. Like in kill the micro-apparments disease, there's enough room on the planet for all to leave confortable... in bigger rooms, and with chunkier laptops if that makes them more recyclable. "Space" IS mostly "free" ya know - very little of Earth's surface is actually usable for stuff like agriculture, energy production, mining etc.)

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#84

Post by ClumsyPilot » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 1:28 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #71

Depending on how this is handled it could backfire and we end up with more pollution as people discard used parts. For some items, like adding easily swap of batteries may open the devices to easier contamination. However if right to repair is contained to authorized repair centers; which is currently how warranties are preserved in many countries; then it might still pass provided someone with the right tools can do…

There is a world of difference between technical obstacles and deliberate ones. Apple structures their contracts so that the manufacturer is not allowed to sell components to any third parties, making repair impossible. You could be forced to throw out a five grand laptop because you are not allowed to buy a $5 chip, that can be easily replaced.

Watch this testimony. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLIW7mQ8CI4

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#85

Post by snuxoll » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 1:28 PM UTC

linuxftw wrote: post #77

qayxc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let’s be honest: majority of users will cause more harm than do good when repairing something. What kind of argument is that? Right to repair isn't about you and me fiddling about with with broken appliances. It's about qualified and licensed people in repair shops being able to acquire parts and schematics to do their job. No one is arguing that your average Jane or Joe should be ones doing the repair! That's just…

> qualified and licensed people in repair shops In the US, anyone can repair a vehicle and not void the warranty. No license needed.

Not just vehicles, anything - the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act does not discriminate.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#86

Post by imtringued » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 1:28 PM UTC

jeremyjh wrote: post #82

cs702 wrote: post #80

When you buy a physical object, such as a home, a car, a shirt, or a smartphone, shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on -- you know, all the rights and benefits associated with the concept of private ownership ? And when you buy a software object, shouldn't you have the same rights and benefits?

Licensing is not the same as purchasing. I don’t think banning the concept of licensing would be helpful.

I don't think banks would be happy if someone returned their "tuned" car after the lease ended.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#87

Post by ClumsyPilot » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 1:32 PM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #28

simion314 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is not that you should be able to swap your battery as easy as you can with an Nokia 3310 but that you or a competent person could swap the battery with tools made for that purpose. Also I should have the right to use components from a broken iPhone into a different broken iPhone so I get a working iPhone(and if you claim security then wipe the phone before you allow this swap).

> The idea is not that you should be able to swap your battery as easy as you can with an Nokia 3310 but that you or a competent person could swap the battery with tools made for that purpose. On many modern devices, you don't have "a battery", you have battery cells fit into every available space and wired together. You're certainly welcome to try replacing those. I just don't want to see that reverted to a discrete…

Firstly there is component level repair, faulty chips on a circuitboard can be de-soldered and replaced. It is not rocket science, it's perfectly normal level of repair and is worthwhile on a $500+ device.

Then there is no phone that literally has a single board, there are other components such as the camera, earpiece, screen, etc. that are still replaceable.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#88

Post by short_sells_poo » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 1:35 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #86

jeremyjh wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Licensing is not the same as purchasing. I don’t think banning the concept of licensing would be helpful.

I don't think banks would be happy if someone returned their "tuned" car after the lease ended.

When you lease a car, you do not own it. The bank owns the car and depending on the country of residence, the dealership is possibly on the hook for a guaranteed buyout price. The lessee is certainly not allowed to "tune" the car without the consent of the bank/dealership. They are usually not even allowed to service it anywhere but at an authorized garage.

This is different from outright purchase of the car, where you can literally drive it to the nearest scrap yard and have it crushed right after purchase :)

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#89

Post by imtringued » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 1:36 PM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #51

avianlyric wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On many modern devices, you don't have "a battery", you have battery cells fit into every available space and wired together. You're certainly welcome to try replacing those. I just don't want to see that reverted to a discrete battery design. Source for this. No device has unpackaged unprotected battery cells just floating around. They may have many discrete batteries to use up all of the available space, but each…

I didn't say "unpackaged" or "unprotected". But I've seen the internals of multiple devices that have simple plastic wrappers (not hard shells) around the various battery cells, with wires connecting those plastic wrappers, and they don't have duplicated battery electronics, just one set.

I'm not sure how that is relevant to the right of being allowed to swap parts. If you can't make parts yourself but you can take salvageable parts from a broken device. Why should you be prevented from doing this repair? Also, why should third party manufacturers be prevented from making compatible parts?

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#90

Post by listsfrin » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 1:36 PM UTC

schrijver wrote: post #73

listsfrin wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They block competent repairman? Or they ask money for competent repair?

Companies often have the monopoly on repair for their products because they don’t make the parts and diagnostic tools available. Yes, they ask money for repair, but there also plenty of repairs they flat out refuse to do. Apple refuses to repair phones with water damage for example. Repairs that repair shops might be happy to do, if they had the access to parts.

How do you repair water damage? Look at the colour of the motherboard and declare it's fine?

Besides that, most Apple phones since 2016 or so are water resistant.