Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#251

Post by LeonidasXIV » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:27 PM UTC

Svip wrote: post #21

dehrmann wrote: post #17

Part of why cashless works is the same reason the Swedish welfare state generally works: a trust of government. Contrast this with Germany and its history with...lists; it's best not to have yourself be too traceable. I think the US is somewhere in-between, but at the end of the day, we'll hand over a lot for 2% cashback and avoid paying for journalism at all costs.

Another consideration is PoS cost. In Denmark, I know that credit card PoS's are super expensive to rent. And you need to rent them, because if you buy them - which is even more expensive - you'll have to replace them every year. So you need a certain amount of turnover to have a credit card PoS in Denmark. The card PoS's come in two forms; one that only takes the Danish Dankort (which is the cheaper) and one that al…

This does not mirror my experience at all, it is very rare not to be able to pay with card at all, even at shawarma/kebab/hotdog stands. The only places that are cash-only are drug dealers and some other places in Christiania and cheap hairdressers who opt in to not report their earnings to SKAT all that accurately.

Also, the Denmark-only Dankort is dying and its demise is happening fast: they are coupled as Dankort/Visa cards and the POS might decide to prefer Dankort but accepts Visa just as well. Neither Google Pay nor Fitbit Pay support Dankort and I have not seen transactions fail that would work with my Dankort.

Also, cash transactions are pretty rare too. Even older people use contactless, I have never seen cashiers have to pick coins from someone's hand as is customary with older people in Germany. Sometimes days pass without me seeing anyone pay with cash. In my experience the main source of cash transactions are German tourists.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#252

Post by digestiv3 » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #243

digestiv3 wrote: post #240

A lot of the comments to this post talks about the dangers with a cashless society in terms of giving up the right to privacy. While that might be true right now one must remember that the technological advances of cashless payments are very new and we must work towards a cashless payment solution that can meet the privacy needs that cash provides. Saying that "you should always be able to pay with cash if you want"…

In the US, cash money is enshrined in the Constitution. It'll take a significant act of Congress to change that. So a long history of cash as a civil right.

That is true for many technological advances when faced with dated legislation. "Written in stone" is a very poor saying since the collective understanding changes with time. Conservativism does not play well with the rapid technological advances made each year.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#253

Post by LeonidasXIV » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:31 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #43

Svip wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tourists, I'd imagine. I am not sure how many merchants you know in Sweden that accepts UnionPay? At least of the smaller ones. And I know most German tourists prefer cash, generally any tourist from a cash heavy society will prefer cash. Sure, their big ticket items are still going to be hotels and the like, where they will pay with a credit card, but they are not interested in coming if they can pay the small merch…

When I travel abroad I just use my mastercard, why doesn't that work for them? I don't know anyone without a mastercard or a visa.

Many Germans don't. Or don't know their PINs. Or have horrible foreign transaction fees, since they never use them nor care.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#254

Post by LeonidasXIV » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:33 PM UTC

Svip wrote: post #48

username90 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I travel abroad I just use my mastercard, why doesn't that work for them? I don't know anyone without a mastercard or a visa.

Where do you travel? There are plenty of countries I've been to that don't accept any foreign cards. Unless you only go to the fancy hotels and restaurants, I suppose. But if you actually want to interact with small merchants abroad, you need cash. I never travel abroad without cash, and that includes when I travel to Sweden.

> I never travel abroad without cash, and that includes when I travel to Sweden.

I've been in Sweden plenty times and haven't even seen a single Swedish krona. In the Copenhagen subreddit we also recommend people not bringing in cash, at least as long as their credit card situation is somewhat reasonable.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#255

Post by digestiv3 » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:34 PM UTC

zoomablemind wrote: post #242

The convenience of electronic payments is obvious. But cashless sounds more like a restriction, indeed inconvenience. Say, one lost a wallet and phone (robbed or just that, lost) and needs to get back home somehow. Public transportation requires an electronic ticket, cab needs card. What's then? Walk to your bank branch, explain to driver the story and pay later, hope a compelled passenger would pay for you? Lending…

Here is a radical idea: what if everyone paid their tickets through a public infrastructure tax. That way neither the person with cards or cash in their wallets has to worry about getting home. We don't even need to carry a wallet that could get lost in the first place!

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#256

Post by 2rsf » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:35 PM UTC

fipar wrote: post #159

beefield wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's all very convenient until the crap hits the fan I have difficulties imagining the crap hitting fan that simultaneously breaks down electronic payment systems but rather miraculously keeps the purchasing power of paper money intact for any extended time. Could you maybe elaborate why you consider this specific scenario likely enough to worry about?

You may be reading "crap hits the fan" as something massive, like a collapse of the banking system. I'm not the OP, but I can also read it as "crap hits the fan for me ", and this makes it simple to imagine ways in which a person can lose access to digital payment (by theft, by being blocked by the bank for whatever reason, etc.) and if this happens, life would be difficult on a cash-less society until this access is…

While this might happen what do you suggest as a way to mitigate the risk ? there a practical limit to how much cash the average person can hold at home.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#257

Post by matz1 » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:38 PM UTC

Legogris wrote: post #218

beefield wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's all very convenient until the crap hits the fan I have difficulties imagining the crap hitting fan that simultaneously breaks down electronic payment systems but rather miraculously keeps the purchasing power of paper money intact for any extended time. Could you maybe elaborate why you consider this specific scenario likely enough to worry about?

Private banks have no obligation to take you as a customer and there's no public alternative.

Then make it an obligation to take you as costumer or make a public alternative.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#258

Post by flamtap » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:40 PM UTC

smichel17 wrote: post #166

ksec wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I really hope this trend dies off, a cash-less society is a terrible idea.... Exactly. We could get rid of coins, and replace it with an electronic variant and leave paper cash alone. I am all for contactless payment, but I want the option to use cash. The only thing that guarantees privacy. And this is especially true in places without democracy, as shown in the Hong Kong Protest.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but spending time in Germany has changed my view on coins. See, in the US, coins are kind of useless on their own. You can't pay for anything with only coins, so giving exact change is always an extra step on top of paying with cash. Ugh. But in the EU, they have €1 and €2 coins, and it's difficult to overstate how much this changes the dynamic. It means that for purchase…

As a Canadian, let me tell you that it gets even better when you eliminate the penny as well!

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#259

Post by jotm » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:42 PM UTC

ACS_Solver wrote: post #105

codr7 wrote: post #66

I recently moved back to Sweden after living 4 years in Germany. I don't have any cards, and I don't carry a "smart"phone anymore; in Germany this didn't cause any trouble at all and I was far from alone. Much of the current Swedish society is currently closed to me, I know of three shops and one cafe in the (200k people) city center that accept cash. Some of it has been gradual but it changed dramatically during the…

I've lived in Sweden for nearly 10 years, and the whole cashless aspect is really something I've embraced. Cashless payments dominated even 10 years ago, but I've also seen a massive change in the past 2-3 years with places no longer accepting cash. Grocery shops still do, but most restaurants, takeout places and cafes are cashless. On the contrary, I find myself irritated in Germany where cash is required. The main…

> places no longer accepting cash

Is that legal? I believe in most countries national currency most be accepted in any form, by law...

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#260

Post by matz1 » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 2:45 PM UTC

fipar wrote: post #159

beefield wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's all very convenient until the crap hits the fan I have difficulties imagining the crap hitting fan that simultaneously breaks down electronic payment systems but rather miraculously keeps the purchasing power of paper money intact for any extended time. Could you maybe elaborate why you consider this specific scenario likely enough to worry about?

You may be reading "crap hits the fan" as something massive, like a collapse of the banking system. I'm not the OP, but I can also read it as "crap hits the fan for me ", and this makes it simple to imagine ways in which a person can lose access to digital payment (by theft, by being blocked by the bank for whatever reason, etc.) and if this happens, life would be difficult on a cash-less society until this access is…

People can lose access to cash too, by theft or whatever.

>Just imagine if you're accidentally identified as a financial supporter of terrorism or something like that, and your bank accounts are blocked

Then make it illegal for bank to block your account or whatever.

Sure, digital payment has its issue but why not fix the issue instead of going back to cash.