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Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

bbc.com

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Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#21

Post by Svip »

dehrmann wrote: post #17

Part of why cashless works is the same reason the Swedish welfare state generally works: a trust of government. Contrast this with Germany and its history with...lists; it's best not to have yourself be too traceable. I think the US is somewhere in-between, but at the end of the day, we'll hand over a lot for 2% cashback and avoid paying for journalism at all costs.

Another consideration is PoS cost. In Denmark, I know that credit card PoS's are super expensive to rent. And you need to rent them, because if you buy them - which is even more expensive - you'll have to replace them every year. So you need a certain amount of turnover to have a credit card PoS in Denmark.

The card PoS's come in two forms; one that only takes the Danish Dankort (which is the cheaper) and one that also accepts foreign cards.

Which is why merchants in Denmark - at least smaller ones - are still weary about upgrading to the fancy PoS, and therefore need to accept cash some times. Sure, there are alternatives to that, like MobilePay. But usually your problem will be with tourists, who don't have access to that, nor access to a Danish card, and can only pay cash. (Another good reason why governments won't abandon cash; they'd lose a lot of tourists too.)

I don't know whether PoS's are cheaper in Sweden than in Denmark, but generally speaking, Danes and Swedes have about the same level of trust in government, yet there are far more cash transactions in Denmark compared to Sweden.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#22

Post by jussij »

tedeh wrote: post #10
reaperducer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do poor people function in a cashless society?

A bank account is a right for every EU citizen: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-pr... Banks are not allowed to refuse account opening to any resident.

From your link:

> In some EU countries, your bank might still charge you an annual fee for this basic payment account. This fee should remain reasonable.

For someone who is really poor, that annual account keeping fee is a much bigger hit to their pocket when compared to others not doing it so tough.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#23

Post by jopsen »

Svip wrote: post #14
willvarfar wrote: post #4

Its a bold headline, but as the article explains, its not actually very many Swedes who seem to be 'rebelling'. People I know are trying to get pensioners they are 'responsible for' to stop carrying and using cash, as its far higher risk. I don't personally know of anybody rebelling against the cashless society, not in any age group. Its not even talked about. On the other hand, 'do you take swish' (a phone-to-phone…

> I don't personally know of anybody rebelling against the cashless society, not in any age group. Its not even talked about. No one is, because the cashless society isn't happening. The concept of abandoning cash is at this stage merely a thought experiment. Even in Sweden, the most significant action taken in that direction is a discussion about whether to have a discussion, from the government. But why would any g…

You're right that if you take away cash the sketchy side of the economy might switch to euros or dollar :)

But that won't work for shops trying to avoid taxes. It'll also make it much harder to buy stuff from criminals, as you would have to go get cash somewhere.

What other cash exchanges still happens?

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#24

Post by techsupporter »

notRobot wrote: post #2

Being able to pay through cards and phones is super convenient, but cash should never not be an option. Card companies, payment apps and banks are constantly tracking your purchases and profiling you. This data can be leaked/stolen/sold, and is always available to governments and those in/with power. Cash is (almost completely) anonymous. You should always be able to pay with cash if you want.

> You should always be able to pay with cash if you want.

Why, other than your privacy? If I own a business, why should I be barred from choosing to not accept cash? Paper money is more labor-intensive to handle and opens my employees up to risk of being robbed for that cash or sickened by handling dirty bills.

As for people who may not be able to pay electronically, why can I not choose to not have them as customers?

If your argument is “because social good and we make those kinds of requirements on businesses all of the time,” I’m open to it but feel it goes much farther than privacy.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#25

Post by bryanrasmussen »

username90 wrote: post #7
reaperducer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do poor people function in a cashless society?

They have bank accounts and debit cards like everyone else? In Sweden everyone can get Visa and Mastercard debit cards so you can even do internet purchases everywhere with them. If you mean how they transfer money between each other, they just use smart phones and Swish. Beggars even ask for money that way.

And when you lose your card because you have a problem keeping track of physical objects do you then just go to the bank and they use the card replacing machine to issue you a new one right on the spot? That's pretty cool, I wish we had something like that here in Denmark because wow, I lose my card a lot and I have to go weeks without one.

One time I lost my card, ordered a new one, the card arrived but the pin code didn't arrive, so I waited an extra 4 days for it, and called up and they said sometimes that happens and then they sent me a new one, which meant I went essentially 24 days without a card.

As far as phones go, so if your phone goes out, gets lost, gets stolen, breaks you have no money because money is tightly bound to your phone.

I have a difficult time respecting the architectural decisions that have been made in this new implementation of money.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#26

Post by jbergens »

Svip wrote: post #21
dehrmann wrote: post #17

Part of why cashless works is the same reason the Swedish welfare state generally works: a trust of government. Contrast this with Germany and its history with...lists; it's best not to have yourself be too traceable. I think the US is somewhere in-between, but at the end of the day, we'll hand over a lot for 2% cashback and avoid paying for journalism at all costs.

Another consideration is PoS cost. In Denmark, I know that credit card PoS's are super expensive to rent. And you need to rent them, because if you buy them - which is even more expensive - you'll have to replace them every year. So you need a certain amount of turnover to have a credit card PoS in Denmark. The card PoS's come in two forms; one that only takes the Danish Dankort (which is the cheaper) and one that al…

There are newer solutions like iZettle for cards that costs less. In Sweden we also have Swish, payment by smartphone without cards, but that is also a bit harder for older people.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#27

Post by Svip »

jopsen wrote: post #23
Svip wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't personally know of anybody rebelling against the cashless society, not in any age group. Its not even talked about. No one is, because the cashless society isn't happening. The concept of abandoning cash is at this stage merely a thought experiment. Even in Sweden, the most significant action taken in that direction is a discussion about whether to have a discussion, from the government. But why would any g…

You're right that if you take away cash the sketchy side of the economy might switch to euros or dollar :) But that won't work for shops trying to avoid taxes. It'll also make it much harder to buy stuff from criminals, as you would have to go get cash somewhere. What other cash exchanges still happens?

Tourists, I'd imagine. I am not sure how many merchants you know in Sweden that accepts UnionPay? At least of the smaller ones. And I know most German tourists prefer cash, generally any tourist from a cash heavy society will prefer cash.

Sure, their big ticket items are still going to be hotels and the like, where they will pay with a credit card, but they are not interested in coming if they can pay the small merchant with cash. Because they don't have access to the local infrastructure for digital payments, that the locals do.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#28

Post by bryanrasmussen »

jopsen wrote: post #23
Svip wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't personally know of anybody rebelling against the cashless society, not in any age group. Its not even talked about. No one is, because the cashless society isn't happening. The concept of abandoning cash is at this stage merely a thought experiment. Even in Sweden, the most significant action taken in that direction is a discussion about whether to have a discussion, from the government. But why would any g…

You're right that if you take away cash the sketchy side of the economy might switch to euros or dollar :) But that won't work for shops trying to avoid taxes. It'll also make it much harder to buy stuff from criminals, as you would have to go get cash somewhere. What other cash exchanges still happens?

Can't people just go to the bank and get euros? I would think buying stuff from criminals would be just as easy as ever. Would the government track euro withdrawals without traveling?

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#29

Post by ColanR »

LatteLazy wrote: post #20
dehrmann wrote: post #17

Part of why cashless works is the same reason the Swedish welfare state generally works: a trust of government. Contrast this with Germany and its history with...lists; it's best not to have yourself be too traceable. I think the US is somewhere in-between, but at the end of the day, we'll hand over a lot for 2% cashback and avoid paying for journalism at all costs.

Of course, the German government that made lists did so without credit card records or electronic ids or anything like that...

And just think what they could have accomplished if that modern tech had existed.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#30

Post by ce4 »

LatteLazy wrote: post #20
dehrmann wrote: post #17

Part of why cashless works is the same reason the Swedish welfare state generally works: a trust of government. Contrast this with Germany and its history with...lists; it's best not to have yourself be too traceable. I think the US is somewhere in-between, but at the end of the day, we'll hand over a lot for 2% cashback and avoid paying for journalism at all costs.

Of course, the German government that made lists did so without credit card records or electronic ids or anything like that...

This misses the point - the spying-on-your-citizens was decided by the state on purpose, going completely cashless enables dragnet surveillance that makes it really hard to evade if one has to (journalists, dissidents)
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