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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

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Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. It turns out west Europe doesn't differ that much on these issues. In fact your answer only strengthens my conviction this is a major underlying reason. You think the French government would take it on the chin and just accept for example not being able to pay pensions? From what I can gather off frenchproperty.com the 'social charges' tax rate employees pay is very very big (29% employee, 50% employer, to…

> From what I can gather off frenchproperty.com the 'social charges' tax rate employees pay is very very big (29% employee, 50% employer, total would be something like 65%) while self employed pay 12% to 23%. Exactly how much someone will pay in social charges is complex, because it depends on their line of work, how their business is set up if self-employed and how much they’re making. But here’s one example: A typi…

I forgot to add that between the two cases that I mentioned, the salaried employee also has 5 weeks or more of paid vacation. The self-employed worker just bills for days that they works. Vacation is unpaid or more accurately needs to be factored in as a cost in order to compare apples with apples and not oranges.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suppose the people driving for Uber could get a job somewhere else as an employee. In this case they willingly chose the driving job with e.g. more flexible hours over the other job with employment status, so why are we second guessing their choice and trying to take it away? Who's taking it away, though? There's no law that a company can't offer employees flexible hours, and nobody's arguing that there should be.…

> There's no law that a company can't offer employees flexible hours, and nobody's arguing that there should be. If Uber decides employee drivers can't have flexible hours, then that's on them. This argument is a non-sequitor with regard to employee/contractor status. The flexible hours come in exchange for contractor status. If they paid employee benefits they could attract employees who don't need flexible hours. W…

> The flexible hours come in exchange for contractor status.

You keep saying that, but there's nothing backing it up. Contractors typically have more flexible hours, but companies are free to allow flexible hours if they want to. If the drivers were employees, it would be Uber's choice to give them flexible hours or not.

> If they paid employee benefits they could attract employees who don't need flexible hours. Which means if you force them to pay employee benefits either way, they take those workers instead of the ones who need flexible hours and the ones who need flexible hours are out of work.

That's all speculation, though. Maybe the displaced employees will start an Uber competitor that does give flexible hours, beat out Uber, and become the next unicorns. It could be the best thing that ever happens to them...

Really, it's a wash. One group loses a specific job option because they need flexible hours and Uber (supposedly) won't allow it , and another group gains that option because they need regularity.

> There are a bunch of rules and incentives with respect to employer-provided health insurance, unemployment insurance etc. that apply to employees and not contractors. If there was no difference then why would anybody care about how the drivers are classified?

Who is paying for the driver's insurance right now, though? If each driver pays for their own then they'll collectively save a ton of money on a corporate group plan. Employees working under 30 hours a week aren't even required to get employer provided insurance, though, so there may not be a change for people taking advantage of those flexible hours...

> In general you could expect a reclassification to negatively impact everyone involved, because being an employee involves a lot more paperwork and bureaucracy but the value in any advantage from it should then get reflected in correspondingly lower compensation (or loss of employment if that level of compensation falls below minimum wage).

There's not more paperwork and bureaucracy - the existing paperwork and bureaucracy is just concentrated into Uber's HR and finance departments, instead of being done by thousands of drivers.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#593
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have in fact delivered pizzas as a W2 employee, and had to use my own car. While I didn't ask if they'd provide a car for me, because I've never heard of such an arrangement, I highly doubt the answer would've been yes.

You should be compensated for that. Sounds illegal, at least in Europe.

As mac01021 said, they do pay a commission, but you aren't going to get that job or the commission unless you already have a car.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#594
post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If people were taking home $100k driving for Uber I would accept this argument, since I wouldn't want to interrupt the good opportunity with regulations. So only rich people should have opportunities?

How did you get that conclusion? What he is saying if there were advantages over normal employment, it would be more palatable

Evidently, there are enough advantages for people to voluntarily take on those jobs.

And 'normal employment' means 'unemployment' for a lot of people in France these years.

France should encourage more companies to enter and contest the market that Uber is in.

See https://www.idiosyncraticwhisk.com/2019/05/uber-and-wages-in... for how when Uber and eg Lyft are both operating in the same market, the result is almost a textbook case of perfect competition.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no law that a company can't offer employees flexible hours, and nobody's arguing that there should be. If Uber decides employee drivers can't have flexible hours, then that's on them. This argument is a non-sequitor with regard to employee/contractor status. The flexible hours come in exchange for contractor status. If they paid employee benefits they could attract employees who don't need flexible hours. W…

> The flexible hours come in exchange for contractor status. You keep saying that, but there's nothing backing it up. Contractors typically have more flexible hours, but companies are free to allow flexible hours if they want to. If the drivers were employees, it would be Uber's choice to give them flexible hours or not. > If they paid employee benefits they could attract employees who don't need flexible hours. Whic…

> You keep saying that, but there's nothing backing it up. Contractors typically have more flexible hours, but companies are free to allow flexible hours if they want to. If the drivers were employees, it would be Uber's choice to give them flexible hours or not.

The reason they give them flexible hours is in exchange for not having to do the things that come with classifying them as employees. It's what allows them to attract drivers even when they're classified as contractors. If they paid benefits then they could attract drivers without offering flexible hours -- but that doesn't help the drivers who need flexible hours and not benefits.

Not only that, they would be less able to offer flexible hours. When they're hiring contractors, they don't have to care what hours people want to work. If you're an employee, 30 hours is not an option, because if you're working enough to require benefits then they're going to want to make the most of it by having you work 40 hours. But 60 hours is out too, because as an employee you're not going to be approved for overtime. Choosing your own schedule is also out, because for contractors they'll take anyone at any time they're willing to work, but if they're paying benefits and need you to work a specific number of hours a week then they'll want to schedule those hours at times that maximize the number of rides rather than whenever is easiest for you.

Saying that they could still allow flexible hours in a theoretical sense doesn't help anybody when reclassification as employees gives them all these incentives not to.

> That's all speculation, though. Maybe the displaced employees will start an Uber competitor that does give flexible hours, beat out Uber, and become the next unicorns. It could be the best thing that ever happens to them...

Maybe they'll win the lottery five times in a row and then get elected President of the United States. That's speculation.

It's not speculation to say that if Uber pays benefits, it makes it easier for them to attract employees, which allows them to do other things that are less attractive to employees and still find workers. The thing they choose to claw back may be the flexible hours or it may be something else, but it'll be something the drivers currently have which Uber will no longer have to offer because their job would be competitive without it if they paid benefits.

> Really, it's a wash. One group loses a specific job option because they need flexible hours and Uber (supposedly) won't allow it , and another group gains that option because they need regularity.

Work with flexible hours is a lot more scarce than shift work, so making it unavailable in exchange for much more common shift work is not a wash. It's a huge problem for people who need flexible hours.

Also, regularity is a subset of flexible hours. If you want to work 9-5, a job with flexible hours allows that. So you're not adding an option, you're only taking one off the table which was hard to find to begin with.

> Who is paying for the driver's insurance right now, though? If each driver pays for their own then they'll collectively save a ton of money on a corporate group plan.

For a normal corporate group plan, maybe, but think about the context here. You have a group which is inherently at high risk of medical bills due to car accidents. Then this is a job where they accept anyone with a valid driver's license. First thing that happens to that corporate group plan is that everyone without health insurance who gets diagnosed with cancer or cardiovascular disease or diabetes signs up as a driver and uses the "new job" condition to immediately take the insurance.

That group plan would cost more than what you could get on the exchanges.

> Employees working under 30 hours a week aren't even required to get employer provided insurance, though, so there may not be a change for people taking advantage of those flexible hours...

The people taking advantage of flexible hours aren't necessarily the people working less than 30 hours. If you want to work 5 hours while your kids are at school at 2 hours after they go to bed, you'll have a hard time negotiating that schedule at Target, but it's still 35 hours a week.

The people who work under 30 hours may not see much of a difference, but "this change may have no real effect on a particular subgroup of people" is not actually an argument that it is benefiting them.

> There's not more paperwork and bureaucracy - the existing paperwork and bureaucracy is just concentrated into Uber's HR and finance departments, instead of being done by thousands of drivers.

In other words, there is more paperwork and bureaucracy. Because there are still thousands of drivers, but now there is an extraneous middle man between the drivers and their insurance carrier, making choices on their behalf that they might not prefer and processing paperwork that the insurance carrier will only have to process again.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well one can't simultaneously drive a passenger obtained via Uber, and a passenger obtained via Lyft either.

Neither can a contractor build a gazebo for one client at the same time as they're building a gazebo for a different client. But there is a difference between getting paid for hours and getting paid for tasks.

Your analogy is not very good. General contractors take bids, they don't set the price, they take the best offer for them. And as a sub contractor or GC you can have as many jobs open as you want. I see no similarities between uber driving and sub contracting, aside from both being task based. Contractors get to set their rate, is built into the bid process drivers don't.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly the drivers are paid enough to be willing to do it.

Where do you draw the line on that argument? Was the Victorian child labour cool too because they were willing to do it? Were the labour unions employees bad for everyone involved? If not, why not?

Children used to work because they had to in order to survive. The choices were work or starve to death. Taking away the option to work obviously makes them worse off. This plays out today when western countries force labor laws in countries like Bangladesh. When the children can no longer work in factories they often have to resort to prostitution.

The question of labor unions is a different issue. Labor unions do benefit their members who do get raises because of their actions. They do not benefit the people who will no longer get hired because the cost of labor is now higher. They do not benefit workers in other industries because the prices they will pay will be higher and displaced workers will enter their industry lowering their wages. Labor unions harm society at large in order to benefit their memebers.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. It turns out west Europe doesn't differ that much on these issues. In fact your answer only strengthens my conviction this is a major underlying reason. You think the French government would take it on the chin and just accept for example not being able to pay pensions? From what I can gather off frenchproperty.com the 'social charges' tax rate employees pay is very very big (29% employee, 50% employer, to…

No, the French government would not accept not being able to pay pensions. But the French government would still be able to pay pensions, even if everyone were self-employed. The self-employed do already pay into pensions. Additionally, while there are currently 42 different pension plans in France, depending on your line of work, under Macron there's an evolution towards having just one government pension plan for e…

Maybe I'm mistaken. I thought a pay it forward system like what we have here is pretty unique. So workers do not pay for pensioners directly then? At any rate it can't be much what they're paying because the rates are too low.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#599
It classified that Uber driver as an employee. This does not change anything for others who still need to go to court in order to have their status changed (or not, they may loose. We do not have a legal system where precedents can be used in other cases)

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#600
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The losers are the local people who get fewer opportunities as a result. Not saying it's good or bad, just putting it out there.

I'll take the hit and say it's bad. A great purpose of nation states is to enrich and protect the lives of those who are from those respective nations, often and usually at the cost of others. A bunch of non-governmental entities undermining the nation state is undeniably untenable -- both cannot thrive. People, especially the rich, often pretend we don't live in nation states and that the global nation is here -- bu…

I don't think we can say it's good or bad without context. Hiring skilled immigrants at a lower price might enable a company to compete for contracts with overseas companies with cheaper labor, thereby making the company, it's shareholders, and by extension the nation, money that it would have otherwise not have gotten.

I think the "populist vs. globalist" dichotomy as is often used in our political discourse today is far too reductive and not descriptive of reality, if not for society at large then definitely for HN.

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