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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

courdecassation.fr

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Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your shed example, a builder could contact you and negotiate the price (perhaps the $100 price you set is completely unrealistic). That's not possible with Uber - there is no price negotiation - only declining/accepting a ride. Similar argument for changing toppings on a cake - a caterer can negotiate changes to the cake - an Uber driver has no such flexibility. Regardless, given corporate (human?) nature is to le…

> In your shed example, a builder could contact you and negotiate the price (perhaps the $100 price you set is completely unrealistic). The argument presupposed that you refuse to negotiate. To say "but you can negotiate" sidesteps the whole thought experiment. You post the job at a fixed price. It's in writing on your posting, "fixed price". A builder accepts it. Or maybe they try to negotiate and you refuse and the…

In this shed scenario, if the first 10 builders to come across the ad think it's unrealistic and either ignore the ad or try to negotiate and get rejected, they walk away unscathed and quickly take other higher paying gigs. With Uber, I believe ignoring or rejecting customers is detrimental to your ability to continue finding higher paying customers.

... But not detrimental to your ability to find other ride-sharing apps, or non-app methods of discovering customers...

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can also get kicked off for not accepting enough rides. When you're online and available you can't ignore what comes along.

Do you have any evidence for that? Kicking people off for accepting rides and then canceling them makes perfect sense because once you accept the ride, the customer is waiting and they're not looking for another driver. It also discourages drivers from looking at the destination and then refusing rides that legally they're not supposed to, like trips into black neighborhoods. Accepting in the first place either happe…

Because the added delay for customers is bad UX, and so is the increased price customers face when there are fewer drivers willing to accept rides.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people were taking home $100k driving for Uber I would accept this argument, since I wouldn't want to interrupt the good opportunity with regulations. As it is, I see the preponderance of arguments on the side of it being regular employment without the expected benefits. For what it's worth every Uber ride I've taken I would have taken at double the price, it's possible they could afford to pay their full time dri…

> As it is, I see the preponderance of arguments on the side of it being regular employment without the expected benefits. Let's evaluate this for a moment. Suppose the people driving for Uber could get a job somewhere else as an employee. In this case they willingly chose the driving job with e.g. more flexible hours over the other job with employment status, so why are we second guessing their choice and trying to…

> Suppose the people driving for Uber could get a job somewhere else as an employee. In this case they willingly chose the driving job with e.g. more flexible hours over the other job with employment status, so why are we second guessing their choice and trying to take it away?

Who's taking it away, though? There's no law that a company can't offer employees flexible hours, and nobody's arguing that there should be. If Uber decides employee drivers can't have flexible hours, then that's on them. This argument is a non-sequitor with regard to employee/contractor status.

> Now suppose the other job isn't available to them. Job prospects for unskilled workers are pretty bad, so it's either Uber or unemployment. Then it's the same thing -- they'd rather drive for Uber as a contractor than be unemployed, so why should we take that option away from them?

Is it "Uber or unemployment", though? Are unskilled workers without a car just completely screwed? No, because those aren't the only two choices. Do you know of an actual case where a person has had no other choices than Uber and unemployment? It's a red herring.

> The theory behind forcing them to be employees is that it's "better" for them.

I can't speak to France, but in the United States the difference has a lot more to do with taxes and social security than it does with any immediate, direct benefits to the employee.

> If they're employees they get employee benefits. But then they can't work part time anymore, because if the company is going to pay full time benefits then they're going to want full time hours. Flexible hours go away too, because if they're forced to pay benefits they can use them to attract people who don't need flexible hours and no longer have to accommodate people who do.

Again, I don't know about France, but in the United States "employee benefits" have almost nothing to do with employee/contractor status. No company is required to provide any benefits other than wages. If Uber decides employee drivers don't get flexible hours, that's on them, not the law.

> Then the benefits cost money, but the company's margins are pretty thin so the only place to get the money is by making rides more expensive. That hurts all the working class people who have to pay more for rides, but it also lowers demand for rides. Lower demand, fewer drivers.

In the United States, the "benefits" are things like unemployment insurance, social security, income tax, and things like that, which the drivers should already be paying for themselves. In theory this is already coming out of the driver's earnings, so having the company pay it instead shouldn't make a difference to the end user's price.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#504
Labor market regulation is tricky. All of Uber's drivers join as contractors under their own free will. No one is legally obligated to work for Uber. No one is threatening to do harm to anyone if they don't drive for Uber. If they don't like the terms of their employment, they can just stop driving for Uber.

Now of course, that libertarian approach has some practical consequences. Humans are a little bit mushier than the "economic man". We get sick, and old, come of age under different environmental conditions, have certain family obligations, happen upon unexpected circumstances, etc.

We can all appreciate that some people don't really have the option to just quit the job that's just barely keeping them afloat. But if a society decides that it values things like economic and human rights, then the burden of guaranteeing those rights for everyone should be spread across society as a whole, not just on the few whose business model depends on employing those at the bottom.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#505

Labor market regulation is tricky. All of Uber's drivers join as contractors under their own free will . No one is legally obligated to work for Uber. No one is threatening to do harm to anyone if they don't drive for Uber. If they don't like the terms of their employment, they can just stop driving for Uber. Now of course, that libertarian approach has some practical consequences. Humans are a little bit mushier tha…

"No one is legally obligated to work for Uber. No one is threatening to do harm to anyone if they don't drive for Uber. If they don't like the terms of their employment, they can just stop driving for Uber."

This is an interesting position. On the surface it even seems reasonable. Just like "no one is FORCING you to eat that particular food, if you don't like it, just don't eat it".

Well, hunger might force one to eat a particular food, even if one does not like it, even if one does not tolerate it well. It might well be, that that particular food is that one available to you, and you might not be in a position to select another food. Can you opt not to eat it, it it's what seems available to you?

I think we tend to forget that not everyone has the kind of choice we have.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#506
A solution to uber exploiting those with little other choice, might actually be to have more platforms like uber, that'd force them to compete, not only for customers, but for workers.

I like the french version better though. If uber wants to be a taxi company, then do it on fair terms.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#507

Labor market regulation is tricky. All of Uber's drivers join as contractors under their own free will . No one is legally obligated to work for Uber. No one is threatening to do harm to anyone if they don't drive for Uber. If they don't like the terms of their employment, they can just stop driving for Uber. Now of course, that libertarian approach has some practical consequences. Humans are a little bit mushier tha…

A company might find that its much more efficient when employees work 45h weeks or don't have holidays too. But peoplel decided that 40h work weeks and holidays every year are Nice To Have™ so laws were made to ensure those things.

The responsibility to follow that democratic decision is placed on all companies, not just on those few companies that need 45h employees in order to be profitable - although it's only a significant burden for those companies of course.

Companies that aren't sustainable under existing regulations need to disappear and make place for companies that are.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#508
post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

The handyman arbitrates the exchange of money, grabbing 20-25% of it on the way? Does it penalize contractors for not taking a contract? Does it hide the details of the contracts from the contractors until they accept it? The devil is in the details of how exactly Uber operates their service, not in a squinting half-baked comparison to a hypothetical handyman site.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#509
post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

Doesn't all of this also apply to taxis? Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. In most places, taxis aren't allowed to refuse a customer based on destination. Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

Would Uber be happy to be classified as a taxi company?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#510
The real question is should Uber drivers get the same rights and protection as employees, and the company contracting them be held to the same responsabilities. My answer to that is yes, of course.

Wether they are or are not 'employee' according to some last century definition is an uninteresting question.

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