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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

courdecassation.fr

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Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#411

Post by maxerickson »

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

Don't overthink it. Uber is rather obviously a dispatch service and rather obviously not a marketplace.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#412

Post by danboarder »

meheleventyone wrote: post #135
awb wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The inability to negotiate is the key point. On the point about choice, there are areas where drivers can drive for Uber or Lyft though so some drivers do have choice.

Is a leap from a frying pan into a near identical frying pan with a slightly different four letter logo on it much of a choice?

If you only have a few hours to work here and there I would say having the choice to go drive for a service is a good thing, not a "frying pan". Would you prefer to take away that option for these people? I don't see your point.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#414

Post by danboarder »

e40 wrote: post #311
sixstringtheory wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came here to ask that very question. The only thing I could find on Uber's website is this: > Requesting a specific driver > The Uber app cannot match you with a specific driver. > When you request a ride, your app sends your request to nearby drivers to pick you up at your pickup location. https://help.uber.com/riders/article/requesting-a-specific-d...

The issue isn't requesting a specific driver, the issue is a driver making a deal outside the app with passengers. I seriously doubt drivers are allowed to make side deals with passengers.

This seems unenforceable, I don't see how they could stop anyone from doing this if someone wanted to. And I know drivers who do exactly this - they take people to the airport outside the app because they got to know them.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#415

Post by manigandham »

madsbuch wrote: post #381
manigandham wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a strange example. Nobody forced kids to work in mines. Full-time driving jobs already exist. Anyone who wants one can already get one. Why take away their freedom to choose flexibility if they want it?

This was about regulations. I never commented on the uber drivers. Tbh, I have not enough insight to know if they should be protected. I am merely pointing out, that is is easy to forget what regulations do for you. And yes, 9 year old have worked in mines before working age was regulated.

This regulation is specifically about Uber, and it's also easy to forget what regulations can harm and the unintended consequences they create. Balance is key, and that seems to be have been entirely missed here.

> 9 year old have worked in mines before working age was regulated.

I know. They weren't forced to work, they were hired because it was legal and families back then depended on their income. Children still work often in agriculture and it remains the families choice to do so.

Regardless, there's a big difference between child labor and adults choosing how they want to drive for work.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#416

Post by alwayseasy »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #397
alwayseasy wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French court doesn't buy your interpretation of "There is no expectation that either side will come back for more.", the mere existence of a vetting system and a rating system show Uber expected drivers to come back. The profession of driver isn't new and wasn't invented by Uber. Uber just found a way around local labour (and tax) laws and a European government, who's getting the downside of the tech company but…

Aren't ratings evidence of an expectation that the one side won't come back for more? The person who received the ride isn't recording their opinion of the driver for themselves -- they already know it. They're leaving it for some other third party. The existence of Yelp isn't evidence that building contractors are employees, it's the opposite. Actual employers typically don't rate their employees because they're not…

I'm not sure what point you're debating here, the question is about "either side" expecting to come back. In this case the drivers who provide the service are expected to come back, hence the vetting and rating. It establishes a relationship that extends beyond a single trip or "job". IF Yelp ever garners a dominant position in terms of qualified leads and monopoly on pricing to building contractors, French law could conceivably look into them.

> Actual employers typically don't rate their employees because they're not interested in having the best ones poached by competitors. "Employee of the Month" posters around America beg to differ.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#417

Post by 205guy »

inkaudio wrote: post #385
m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

Uber limits the amount of rides you can deny, i.e. you deny 5 rides in 30min they log you off the platform after awhile you get penalized. They want high acceptance rate.

This is the key. When the drivers lack the ability to freely decline rides every time every time without consequences, they are not contractors anymore.

By the way, the take-it-or-leave-it offer with dictated pricing is a really inefficient way to reach a market price. The driver logs off because they can't decline too many times, then there are less drivers, so the rideshare app has to raise prices, but then the drivers nearby are no longer online.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#418

Post by AnthonyMouse »

caymanjim wrote: post #404
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That says they get kicked off for canceling too many rides. Accepting a ride and then canceling it is different than not accepting it to begin with.

They can also get kicked off for not accepting enough rides. When you're online and available you can't ignore what comes along.

Do you have any evidence for that?

Kicking people off for accepting rides and then canceling them makes perfect sense because once you accept the ride, the customer is waiting and they're not looking for another driver. It also discourages drivers from looking at the destination and then refusing rides that legally they're not supposed to, like trips into black neighborhoods.

Accepting in the first place either happens or doesn't in only a few seconds, and if you don't they immediately go on to the next driver. At best they have the incentive to make you manually re-enable your availability to drive if you neither accept nor decline more than a couple of rides in a row, so they can stop routing rides to you if you're not actually there. In makes no sense to kick you off over it, so why would they do that?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#419

Post by LatteLazy »

duxut_staglatz wrote: post #339
LatteLazy wrote: post #329

How many people cheering this are still paying the plumber that fixed their toilet a year ago a salary?

My plumber is an actual independent worker, setting his own rates, having his own clientele and free to organize his work as he sees fit.

Uber doesn't stop people having their own clients. Quite the opposite, it's a great place to swap numbers with a driver you like. Uber even has a favourites button so you have a higher chance of getting the same driver/passenger.

Also, your plumber doesn't set his rates, you do. He quotes and you accept (or not). That's exactly the same as the Uber driver.

It seems pretty obvious to me that Uber drivers organise their own work. They start and stop when they want, pick the journeys they want, set their own hours etc. But maybe I've misunderstood you?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#420

Post by pishpash »

caymanjim wrote: post #404
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That says they get kicked off for canceling too many rides. Accepting a ride and then canceling it is different than not accepting it to begin with.

They can also get kicked off for not accepting enough rides. When you're online and available you can't ignore what comes along.

Getting switched offline after too much inactivity, from which you need to actively affirm intent to work by going online again, is not the same as getting kicked off the platform.
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