Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#581

Post by timwaagh » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 7:36 PM UTC

gjulianm wrote: post #172

timwaagh wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The classification of uber drivers as employees mostly means they have to pay more tax and less money goes to drivers and uber. People will argue employees have more rights and this is good for them, but the primary benefit of someone being an employee is to the state and the benefit is financial. If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. The line between 'employee' and 'self-em…

Several things: First, you say "more rights" as if that was just a detail. But paid vacations, sick/paternity/family leave, minimum wage, pensions, social security, right to strike, unemployment benefits and the like are not just a minor thing. > If you try contracting as a coder for example, you are likely to get reclassified as an employee. I have worked as a freelance through some brokerages/exchanges (e.g. Upwork…

It is a 'detail' not to us but from the perspective of the government.

You are still pretty likely to get pursued by the tax services for 'freelancing'. At least where I live. I hope you manage to slip through the net though :)

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#582

Post by dennnis » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 7:56 PM UTC

8note wrote: post #433

rpvnwnkl wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rideshare drivers are paid by the task, but that task is time-bound. Building a shed isn't. You can take on two shed contracts simultaneously, not so as a rideshare driver.

if it's a shared car, you could pick up customers from multiple apps on the same trip?

no

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#583

Post by dennnis » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 7:58 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #577

nathanappere wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the issues here is about Uber getting away with paying the same type of taxes than other businesses, which creates an unfair situations with other companies & a race to the bottom for workers rights.

"Workers rights" are things like the right not to be refused a job because you're a woman. I don't think anybody is accusing Uber of doing this, nor would doing it give anyone any apparent competitive advantage in modern markets. Classifying things like unemployment insurance under that banner is silly, because anybody who wants it can go buy it with money, so it makes no sense to require it rather than letting worke…

great point

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#584

Post by timwaagh » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 8:28 PM UTC

smcphile wrote: post #282

timwaagh wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The classification of uber drivers as employees mostly means they have to pay more tax and less money goes to drivers and uber. People will argue employees have more rights and this is good for them, but the primary benefit of someone being an employee is to the state and the benefit is financial. If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. The line between 'employee' and 'self-em…

>> If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. This is not the case in France. Self-employed people still pay personal income tax and/or a tax on company profits. The increased taxes on employees as compared to the self-employed is mainly due to paying for the infrastructure and cost of providing extra benefits to employees, like unemployment insurance, vacation pay, better pensio…

Same here. It turns out west Europe doesn't differ that much on these issues. In fact your answer only strengthens my conviction this is a major underlying reason. You think the French government would take it on the chin and just accept for example not being able to pay pensions?

From what I can gather off frenchproperty.com the 'social charges' tax rate employees pay is very very big (29% employee, 50% employer, total would be something like 65%) while self employed pay 12% to 23%.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#585

Post by timwaagh » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 8:42 PM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #150

timwaagh wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The classification of uber drivers as employees mostly means they have to pay more tax and less money goes to drivers and uber. People will argue employees have more rights and this is good for them, but the primary benefit of someone being an employee is to the state and the benefit is financial. If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. The line between 'employee' and 'self-em…

This depends heavily on the tax laws in a particular jurisdiction.

Yes. Some (mostly) very low tax places won't have this problem. But there are reasons for it. There is the underlying principle that government likes to incentivice new business creation over just taking a job someone else could have gotten. There is also the issue that dodging tax is easier for one man business than employees so if you want to tax them at all you have to be a bit lenient.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#586

Post by timwaagh » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

aikah wrote: post #152

timwaagh wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The classification of uber drivers as employees mostly means they have to pay more tax and less money goes to drivers and uber. People will argue employees have more rights and this is good for them, but the primary benefit of someone being an employee is to the state and the benefit is financial. If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. The line between 'employee' and 'self-em…

> The classification of uber drivers as employees mostly means they have to pay more tax and less money goes to drivers and uber. You forgot to disclose the fact that they are getting many perks like properly funding their public pensions while working for Uber AND getting access to regular unemployment funds. The advantages absolutely out-weight the drawbacks in France. And they are guaranteed a minimum wage, legal…

We shall see how French uber drivers will fare in future but I don't share your optimism.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#587

Post by dahfizz » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #567

dahfizz wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense for a full time employee. That does not make sense when there is no set schedule to begin with.

That's probably part of the equation too, i.e. that a majority of workers want a full time employment with a schedule so that they can take a few weeks off.

They want additional restrictions so that sometimes the restrictions are lifted? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#588

Post by smcphile » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 9:41 PM UTC

timwaagh wrote: post #584

smcphile wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. This is not the case in France. Self-employed people still pay personal income tax and/or a tax on company profits. The increased taxes on employees as compared to the self-employed is mainly due to paying for the infrastructure and cost of providing extra benefits to employees, like unemployment insurance, vacation pay, better pensio…

Same here. It turns out west Europe doesn't differ that much on these issues. In fact your answer only strengthens my conviction this is a major underlying reason. You think the French government would take it on the chin and just accept for example not being able to pay pensions? From what I can gather off frenchproperty.com the 'social charges' tax rate employees pay is very very big (29% employee, 50% employer, to…

No, the French government would not accept not being able to pay pensions. But the French government would still be able to pay pensions, even if everyone were self-employed. The self-employed do already pay into pensions.

Additionally, while there are currently 42 different pension plans in France, depending on your line of work, under Macron there's an evolution towards having just one government pension plan for everyone. The new system will be based on building up points which can be cashed in on retirement. It will probably start for those who retire starting in 2035. So in the future the pension plan will be the same for everyone, self-employed or employee.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#589

Post by smcphile » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

timwaagh wrote: post #584

smcphile wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. This is not the case in France. Self-employed people still pay personal income tax and/or a tax on company profits. The increased taxes on employees as compared to the self-employed is mainly due to paying for the infrastructure and cost of providing extra benefits to employees, like unemployment insurance, vacation pay, better pensio…

Same here. It turns out west Europe doesn't differ that much on these issues. In fact your answer only strengthens my conviction this is a major underlying reason. You think the French government would take it on the chin and just accept for example not being able to pay pensions? From what I can gather off frenchproperty.com the 'social charges' tax rate employees pay is very very big (29% employee, 50% employer, to…

> From what I can gather off frenchproperty.com the 'social charges' tax rate employees pay is very very big (29% employee, 50% employer, total would be something like 65%) while self employed pay 12% to 23%.

Exactly how much someone will pay in social charges is complex, because it depends on their line of work, how their business is set up if self-employed and how much they’re making.

But here’s one example:

A typical white collar salaried employee, for example a computer consultant, who’s netting 50000 euros will be costing his employer 100000 euros after social charges are taken into account. This worker will be paying into two different pension plans and is also paying for unemployment insurance.

A typical white collar self-employed contract worker who’s billing 100000 euros will have perhaps 5000 euros or so of business expenses and perhaps 30000 to 35000 euros of social charges. It varies mostly on how good their pension plan. So they’re netting 60000 to 65000 euros.

The difference between these two cases is mostly that the salaried worker (currently) has a better pension plan and also has much better unemployment insurance coverage (but which is also expensive).

If you’re not worried about finding work, being self-employed is a bit more profitable in this case, but not hugely so.

The 12% and 23% numbers that you saw is for a what’s called a “microentreprise”. In that case, the social charges are based on total income, not profits (so no deductions).

12% is for when you’re selling goods, not services, and you don’t get to deduct the cost of the goods.

23% is for when you’re selling a service, which is great, but you can’t bill more than 70000 euros (not counting sales tax) in a year and and still be a “microentreprise”.

The idea of the “microentreprise” was to allow very small businesses to get started, with lower social charges and much simple accounting procedures. It’s great for part-time or side projects or low paid work, but it’s not suitable for full-time well paid work.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#590

Post by iamaelephant » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

Jommi wrote: post #315

iamaelephant wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With Uber want to work? Press a button. Want to take a break? Press a button. Want to work again? Press a button. Take as long a break as you want. Work as long as you want. No timecards. No obnoxious coworkers. No intrusive questions. No douchebag bosses making your life a living hell. In what other job do you have this sort of freedom without the instability of traditional selfemployment? What more could you ask…

What below minimum wage rates? In most of Uber's markets the price is based on supple and demand, and the drivers get a portion of that price. It's a market driven scheme where you agree to driving at that price. If you don't agree, then just change platforms, or don't drive!

Literally you're describing the reason minimum wages exist.