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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

courdecassation.fr

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Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#161

Post by smcphile »

m11a wrote: post #122
danboarder wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people I know who are trying this gig economy part-time can pick their own "clientele": Uber, Lyft, Postmates, Door Dash, etc... they work for whichever client they want, on their own schedule. As an "employee" of Uber, I doubt they will want you working for competitors.

See, this is key. If Uber has to class them as employees, it should also be able to deny them from working on other platforms. It should also be able to set working hours. And deny drivers the ability to refuse rides if they wish to keep their job. It could provide a daily salary and not let drivers decide or see fares. Because this is what employment typically entails.

In France, an employer can set working hours and working conditions, as long as both comply with the law. There are restrictions for safety and health reasons for example.

However, if the work is part time, employees can’t be restricted from working at another part time job, unless that job is for a direct competitor of the employer, in which case the restriction is sometimes allowed. (The idea being there could be a conflict of interest or loyalty.)

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#162

Post by volent »

timwaagh wrote: post #140
m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

The classification of uber drivers as employees mostly means they have to pay more tax and less money goes to drivers and uber. People will argue employees have more rights and this is good for them, but the primary benefit of someone being an employee is to the state and the benefit is financial. If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. The line between 'employee' and 'self-em…

You don't pay more taxes as an employee than you do when self-employed AFAIK.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#163

Post by alistairSH »

WanderPanda wrote: post #149
alistairSH wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that in the builder-app, the builder has now been transformed into an employee, same as an Uber driver. To me, "setting prices" is more than just refusing/accepting prices set by an algorithm/app, but the ability to negotiate those independently. In the cake example, a baker absolutely could attempt to negotiate for chocolate. They might not "win" the negotiation, but they have the option. Edit - in the tax…

- I'm convinced corporations are using it to reduce wages and benefits and effectively foist the cost of those lower wages/benefits on society as a whole. The customer demand (customer being the drivers) tells a completely different story of people being more productive than legacy taxi systems by taking responsibility themselves. I think a lean "gig economy" without the full load of bureaucracy is largely positive a…

The legacy taxi system, at least in the US, was ripe for disruption. No argument there. However, disruption doesn't necessarily require shafting "employees" out of wages and benefits. Reform to medallion systems (at least in the cities that have them) might have had similar benefits, without the negatives associated with "gig" employment.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#164

Post by pkaye »

ElKrist wrote: post #82
pkaye wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are called zero hour contracts. It seems like they exist in France also: https://theculturetrip.com/europe/france/articles/what-to-kn...

No they don't exist in France.

Here is what seems to be a better link. Looks like it is outlawed in France but some other EU countries still allow it.

https://fullfact.org/law/zero-hours-contracts-uk-europe/

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#165

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

zoonosis wrote: post #77
on_and_off wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why does the government need to bend backwards to allow underpaid jobs ?

Clearly the drivers are paid enough to be willing to do it.

Where do you draw the line on that argument? Was the Victorian child labour cool too because they were willing to do it? Were the labour unions employees bad for everyone involved? If not, why not?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#166

Post by mavelikara »

slovenlyrobot wrote: post #94
jakub_g wrote: post #34

Now it would be interesting to see the opinion of the court on fake IT contractors (SSII), where as a developer you are a full-time employee of company X, rented for years as full-time "consultant" to company Y, on premises of company Y, just with lower salary and no profit sharing & no bonuses that staff of company Y enjoys. (This has been a common practice of Microsoft in US in 1990s and they lost a lawsuit on that…

The UK HMRC has just absolutely devastated the London contracting market due to a rule shakeup like this. Speaking as an ex-contractor and current hiring manager, the result has been disastrous.

What were the changes and it's negative results you observed?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#167

Post by crispyporkbites »

slovenlyrobot wrote: post #94
jakub_g wrote: post #34

Now it would be interesting to see the opinion of the court on fake IT contractors (SSII), where as a developer you are a full-time employee of company X, rented for years as full-time "consultant" to company Y, on premises of company Y, just with lower salary and no profit sharing & no bonuses that staff of company Y enjoys. (This has been a common practice of Microsoft in US in 1990s and they lost a lawsuit on that…

The UK HMRC has just absolutely devastated the London contracting market due to a rule shakeup like this. Speaking as an ex-contractor and current hiring manager, the result has been disastrous.

Salaried devs in London are drastically underpaid, contractors make up the difference. Hopefully this will at least push up the salaries to a more reasonable level.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#168

Post by ElFitz »

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

Except that neither the customer (the user) nor the provider (the driver) defines the price.

The middle-man (Uber) does. The middle-man decides what tools (car models) the provider may use to do it's work. The middle-man unilateraly sets the Terms & Conditions for both the customers and the providers, without any room for negotiation. The middle-man decides which providers may or may not get the gig. And the middle-man can cut anyone out of the platform at any time without giving notice or justification.

In your example, you fix the price. The provider (handyman) may use the tool of his choosing and, if things go well, the provider is allowed to give you his business card, and you to employ his services directly in the future.

The platform really is just a medium, just like the cork panel at your local supermarket, with an extra mediation capability / service.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#169

Post by walshemj »

jakub_g wrote: post #34

Now it would be interesting to see the opinion of the court on fake IT contractors (SSII), where as a developer you are a full-time employee of company X, rented for years as full-time "consultant" to company Y, on premises of company Y, just with lower salary and no profit sharing & no bonuses that staff of company Y enjoys. (This has been a common practice of Microsoft in US in 1990s and they lost a lawsuit on that…

Which is weird as in London low paid compared to SV. The Normal rule of thumb is 2.5 to 3x a FTE (full time employee) cost.

eg for me I would want to target £600 to £750 per day (possibly more if I was commuting to London) depending on whether its inside IR35 or not. This figure is low as I deliberately worked locally -

If the agency that pitched me the Grade 6 / 7 role in the civil service came off my day rate a contractor would be 1200 to 1400, a 7 is a full Colonel and 6 is between that and a Brigadier

I suspect the long term aim is to force the UK into the US model of a large part of the professional workforce being lower paid consultants.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#170

Post by WanderPanda »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #111
oarla wrote: post #101

I am not sure I understand why this is a win for Uber drivers(genuine question). Is it considered a win because now they are treated as employees, so they will have benefits like sick pay, vacation days etc? What was the policy when they were not employees? Would they be penalized(financially) if they took a sick day? France already mandates some of these for contractors, so not a huge benefit, I think. I doubt it'll…

I have a hunch this is actually being done to hurt Uber drivers and save the already well-regulated Cab industry in France.

Probably also an act of protectionism / hurting foreign companies
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