Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#91

Post by def8cefe » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:17 PM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #24

pkaye wrote: post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

Doesn't all of this also apply to taxis? Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. In most places, taxis aren't allowed to refuse a customer based on destination. Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

>Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street.

'Radio' calls and calls they've privately arranged with customers as well.

>Taxis have regulations set by an organisation.

That would be local by-law in most cases.

>Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route.

You can't intentionally ripoff customers but the fastest route and the cheapest are often different. You can take whatever route you want as long as the customer is cool with it.

>In most places, taxis aren't allowed to refuse a customer based on destination.

You absolutely can refuse a customer as long as it's not descriminatory, like most other businesses.

>Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee?

Some drivers are employees, some are best compared to franchisees and others are totally independent.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#92

Post by squiggleblaz » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:18 PM UTC

djrogers wrote: post #44

floatingatoll wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditional taxi drivers own their taxi medallions and may transfer those medallions to other drivers, which provides one key aspect of their "independent" contractor state: If the cab company mistreats them, they can take their medallion elsewhere. Uber's model prohibits drivers from subcontracting (transferring) their rides to others, which pierces the veil of 'independent contractor': either a contractor can subco…

> Traditional taxi drivers own their taxi medallions That's not really the case in a lot of places - drivers 'rent' medallions from Taxi companies, as the medallions cost many times the annual income of a driver. Although, their value is droppnig due to ridesharing apps. [1]

Why say "ride sharing"? It's not sharing a ride. You can't use uber to basically organise carpooling. It's buying a ride.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#93

Post by GuB-42 » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:18 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #14

So can Uber force French drivers to work certain hours? As an American, I have poor understanding of what employment entails in the EU. If the Uber drivers are just hourly employees, what changes for them? In the USA, you only see real employment benefits if you are a salaried employee. An hourly worker gets paid their wage and that's it (no sick days, retirement, etc).

In France, there are 3 conditions that make you an employee:

- pay

- work

- subordination

The first two are relatively straightforward: you get paid to do work. They are important in order to distinguish between volunteers and employees. Obviously, Uber drivers are working for money, it matches.

The last part is the most important. It means that the employer has power over the employee, as in: give orders, and punishment if the orders are not followed. If the employer can make decisions unilaterally and at any time, there is subordination, even if there are no fixed work hours and no constant supervision.

It is a very commonly broken law in France, at least in spirit.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#94

Post by slovenlyrobot » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:19 PM UTC

jakub_g wrote: post #34

Now it would be interesting to see the opinion of the court on fake IT contractors (SSII), where as a developer you are a full-time employee of company X, rented for years as full-time "consultant" to company Y, on premises of company Y, just with lower salary and no profit sharing & no bonuses that staff of company Y enjoys. (This has been a common practice of Microsoft in US in 1990s and they lost a lawsuit on that…

The UK HMRC has just absolutely devastated the London contracting market due to a rule shakeup like this. Speaking as an ex-contractor and current hiring manager, the result has been disastrous.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#95

Post by rtkwe » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:19 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #51

rtkwe wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the obvious choice of the dispatch company they work for.

I don’t think all taxi drivers work with a dispatch company. Most just pick people up at the side of the road don’t they?

Most will do both dispatched pickups and hailed pickups as I understand it.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#96

Post by m11a » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:21 PM UTC

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services.

Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, even if those may kill your chance at being competitive.

But if you think deeper into this, then this criteria isn't always true.

Here's a scenario: I publish an ad on a handyman site asking for a new shed built for £100. People can place their interest and their proposal. The price is fixed at £100, and I may set other terms and criteria. Nobody is going to argue that the builders are employees of the exchange site. Uber isn't entirely different (it just simplifies the process). Its drivers are allowed to deny a ride, and can see the cost upfront.

Really the difference in these types of self-employment seems to be that the customer approached a set of potential suppliers, rather than vice versa, and the customer set the terms and the self-employed get to accept/deny. In the typical scenario (hairdressers, etc) they set the terms to potential customers who get to accept/deny.

I don't agree or disagree with the classification of Uber drivers as employees, I just don't agree with the criteria of the court in this case.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#97

Post by fastball » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

tyfon wrote: post #65

dahfizz wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does paid time off even look like if you don't have a set schedule, though? Will Uber drivers just get n hours of wage added to their paycheck every month?

Where I live the company has to set aside 12.5% of the salary paid for next years "vacation money". You can chose yourself when to withdraw this money in the following year. For a full time job you are required to take 25 days (or 5 weeks) off work outside of public holidays which is about 10% of the total working time so you usually have a bit more to spend in this period even if the vacation itself is unpaid :)

Why not just pay them more? Seems like a convoluted way to structure a pay increase.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#98

Post by Jommi » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:24 PM UTC

def8cefe wrote: post #91

rahimnathwani wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't all of this also apply to taxis? Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. In most places, taxis aren't allowed to refuse a customer based on destination. Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

>Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. 'Radio' calls and calls they've privately arranged with customers as well. >Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. That would be local by-law in most cases. >Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. You can't intentionally ripoff customers but the fastest route and the cheapest are often different. You can take whatever…

AFAIK all of these apply to Uber drivers in France as well.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#99

Post by rtkwe » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:24 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #86

munk-a wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a mis-categorization - I do agree that these exist (and a lot of them fall into the "airport taxi" class since that's a reliable place to get business) and a cab operating in such a manner sounds plausible to be an independent contractor. But organizations like Yellow Cab exist and is the way most folks hail a cab, even at hotels - when you ask the concierge to get a cab for you they'll almost certainl…

> they'll almost certainly call a local company and ask for a cab to be sent over In my experience they just step outside and wave one down.

Those mostly also belong to a bigger company that handles call in dispatches.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#100

Post by blaser-waffle » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 8:27 PM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #93

dahfizz wrote: post #14

So can Uber force French drivers to work certain hours? As an American, I have poor understanding of what employment entails in the EU. If the Uber drivers are just hourly employees, what changes for them? In the USA, you only see real employment benefits if you are a salaried employee. An hourly worker gets paid their wage and that's it (no sick days, retirement, etc).

In France, there are 3 conditions that make you an employee: - pay - work - subordination The first two are relatively straightforward: you get paid to do work. They are important in order to distinguish between volunteers and employees. Obviously, Uber drivers are working for money, it matches. The last part is the most important. It means that the employer has power over the employee, as in: give orders, and punish…

It's a commonly broken law in a lot of places.

Source: lived and worked in Australia, Canada, and the US.