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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

courdecassation.fr

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Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#171

Post by nraynaud »

viscanti wrote: post #132
boudin wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main differnce is that the handymem can easily look for other customers elsewhere to find an alternative job. Uber drivers don't have this choice. They can't do a counter-offer neither. Technically, as you said, they can refuse. In practice, the power that Uber has on his drivers limits those choices a lot.

> The main difference is that the handymen can easily look for other customers elsewhere to find an alternative job. Uber drivers don't have this choice. I'm not sure what the situation is like in France, but most Uber drivers I've seen have the Lyft app open at the same time. It seems pretty trivial to download another app and use both at the same time (easier than almost any other freelancer finding more sources fo…

Lyft doesn't exist in France.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#172

Post by gjulianm »

timwaagh wrote: post #140
m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

The classification of uber drivers as employees mostly means they have to pay more tax and less money goes to drivers and uber. People will argue employees have more rights and this is good for them, but the primary benefit of someone being an employee is to the state and the benefit is financial. If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. The line between 'employee' and 'self-em…

Several things:

First, you say "more rights" as if that was just a detail. But paid vacations, sick/paternity/family leave, minimum wage, pensions, social security, right to strike, unemployment benefits and the like are not just a minor thing.

> If you try contracting as a coder for example, you are likely to get reclassified as an employee.

I have worked as a freelance through some brokerages/exchanges (e.g. Upwork) and there you set your own rates, your own conditions, and your own clients. I think it's a pretty different framework than Uber.

The issue is not brokerage/exchange or not, it's who controls the terms of the labour done.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#173

Post by abduhl »

m11a wrote: post #122
danboarder wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people I know who are trying this gig economy part-time can pick their own "clientele": Uber, Lyft, Postmates, Door Dash, etc... they work for whichever client they want, on their own schedule. As an "employee" of Uber, I doubt they will want you working for competitors.

See, this is key. If Uber has to class them as employees, it should also be able to deny them from working on other platforms. It should also be able to set working hours. And deny drivers the ability to refuse rides if they wish to keep their job. It could provide a daily salary and not let drivers decide or see fares. Because this is what employment typically entails.

Great, let Uber do all that. Set working hours, deny them from working on other platforms, deny them from being able to refuse rides.

And let the free market compete for drivers by allowing other "gig-economy" companies to not have any of those restraints and seeing which company attracts drivers and which one dies.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#174

Post by ElFitz »

reaperducer wrote: post #129
WalterBright wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Uber drivers are using their own equipment (cars), that also means they are not employees.

Since Uber drivers are using their own equipment (cars), that also means they are not employees. This is not true. There are plenty of professions where employees bring some or all of their own equipment.

True. I'm a developer, and I only once got a company provided computer. And one (1) testing device (mobile dev).

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#175

Post by [deleted] »

tombot wrote: post #89
floatingatoll wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditional taxi drivers own their taxi medallions and may transfer those medallions to other drivers, which provides one key aspect of their "independent" contractor state: If the cab company mistreats them, they can take their medallion elsewhere. Uber's model prohibits drivers from subcontracting (transferring) their rides to others, which pierces the veil of 'independent contractor': either a contractor can subco…

Medallions are a US permit, this article is about a ruling in France.

[deleted]

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#176

Post by nraynaud »

oarla wrote: post #101

I am not sure I understand why this is a win for Uber drivers(genuine question). Is it considered a win because now they are treated as employees, so they will have benefits like sick pay, vacation days etc? What was the policy when they were not employees? Would they be penalized(financially) if they took a sick day? France already mandates some of these for contractors, so not a huge benefit, I think. I doubt it'll…

because now there is a minimal pay per worked hour.

And a worked hour is an hour where you're on call (this is very well settled), not just the driving with a client in the back. And overtime after 35h/w.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#177

Post by throwaway744678 »

oarsinsync wrote: post #114
throwaway744678 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (press release of the) judgement does not address a key counter argument: a large majority of drivers work for several platforms simultaneously. Even if that particular driver did not, he obviously had that possibility: the switching cost are negligible for a driver. Source/disclaimer: used to work for a direct Uber competitor in France.

Having more than one job doesn't mean I'm necessarily self employed. I could work at a supermarket during the mornings, and a cornershop in the evenings, and still be an employee in both cases.

In the case of a driver, they get the ability to dynamically pick their rides in real time, and choose from the different apps the one that pays the most.

There's a paradox in this: Uber and its competitors would ideally like their drivers to be 100% committed; yet they also need the drivers to be able to work for several apps as a defense against requalification as an employee.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#178

Post by walshemj »

crispyporkbites wrote: post #167
slovenlyrobot wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK HMRC has just absolutely devastated the London contracting market due to a rule shakeup like this. Speaking as an ex-contractor and current hiring manager, the result has been disastrous.

Salaried devs in London are drastically underpaid, contractors make up the difference. Hopefully this will at least push up the salaries to a more reasonable level.

Its going to be interesting when the civil service contractors now being treated as FTE's Say:

"oh so about my civil service pension then, and all those years you owe me" Big Juicy Smile

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#179

Post by smallgovt »

coliveira wrote: post #151

Kudos for the French. If a driver works full time driving for Uber she should be compensated as a full time worker.

In all likelihood, moving drivers from contractor to employee status will result in lower pay for drivers. Uber won't foot the larger employment tax bill. They'll just lower driver wages and increase customer prices.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#180

Post by foobar1962 »

danboarder wrote: post #108
m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

But people I know who are trying this gig economy part-time can pick their own "clientele": Uber, Lyft, Postmates, Door Dash, etc... they work for whichever client they want, on their own schedule. As an "employee" of Uber, I doubt they will want you working for competitors.

> pick their own "clientele": Uber, Lyft, Postmates, Door Dash, etc...

They aren't clients, they are the "platforms". The clients are the people paying, not the people collecting.

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