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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

courdecassation.fr

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Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#121

Post by gridspy »

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

Your shed example is not the same as the Uber example.

As described by the court, the driver is not told in advance where the customer is going. They are told exactly how to drive there, and the rate is decided by Uber.

It would be the same as you saying "I want you to build something on my site. Bring your hammer, tools and materials. Call me to find out where. I'll pay you about $20/hr"

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#122

Post by m11a »

danboarder wrote: post #108
m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

But people I know who are trying this gig economy part-time can pick their own "clientele": Uber, Lyft, Postmates, Door Dash, etc... they work for whichever client they want, on their own schedule. As an "employee" of Uber, I doubt they will want you working for competitors.

See, this is key. If Uber has to class them as employees, it should also be able to deny them from working on other platforms. It should also be able to set working hours. And deny drivers the ability to refuse rides if they wish to keep their job. It could provide a daily salary and not let drivers decide or see fares.

Because this is what employment typically entails.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#123

Post by ampdepolymerase »

oarsinsync wrote: post #114
throwaway744678 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (press release of the) judgement does not address a key counter argument: a large majority of drivers work for several platforms simultaneously. Even if that particular driver did not, he obviously had that possibility: the switching cost are negligible for a driver. Source/disclaimer: used to work for a direct Uber competitor in France.

Having more than one job doesn't mean I'm necessarily self employed. I could work at a supermarket during the mornings, and a cornershop in the evenings, and still be an employee in both cases.

But you cannot simultaneously work for both.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#124

Post by WalterBright »

danboarder wrote: post #108
m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

But people I know who are trying this gig economy part-time can pick their own "clientele": Uber, Lyft, Postmates, Door Dash, etc... they work for whichever client they want, on their own schedule. As an "employee" of Uber, I doubt they will want you working for competitors.

Since Uber drivers are using their own equipment (cars), that also means they are not employees.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#125

Post by def8cefe »

felipelemos wrote: post #110
def8cefe wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. 'Radio' calls and calls they've privately arranged with customers as well. >Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. That would be local by-law in most cases. >Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. You can't intentionally ripoff customers but the fastest route and the cheapest are often different. You can take whatever…

> You absolutely can refuse a customer as long as it's not descriminatory, like most other businesses. Are you sure this is the law in France? And remember that Uber operates in several countries. When discussions about this happens we have to remember that each country have it's own rules and laws, and we cannot expect that the law in your country is the only law exists.

>we cannot expect that the law in your country is the only law exists.

I doubt federal law covers taxi regulations in any country, it's generally local by-law or equivalent. The regulations are going to be different in Paris than they are in Lyon.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#126

Post by reaperducer »

m11a wrote: post #122
danboarder wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people I know who are trying this gig economy part-time can pick their own "clientele": Uber, Lyft, Postmates, Door Dash, etc... they work for whichever client they want, on their own schedule. As an "employee" of Uber, I doubt they will want you working for competitors.

See, this is key. If Uber has to class them as employees, it should also be able to deny them from working on other platforms. It should also be able to set working hours. And deny drivers the ability to refuse rides if they wish to keep their job. It could provide a daily salary and not let drivers decide or see fares. Because this is what employment typically entails.

If Uber has to class them as employees, it should also be able to deny them from working on other platforms.

Why? In America, there are tens of millions of people who work more than one job. They're still employees; just employees of more than one company.

Fred's Plastic Fork Factory can't tell me I can't moonlight at Alice's Diesel Cafe and Firing Range.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#127

Post by throwaway744678 »

def8cefe wrote: post #106
Jommi wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK all of these apply to Uber drivers in France as well.

Taxi drivers can pick up anyone on their own terms (with some limitations from local laws). Uber drivers on the other hand can only legally pick up rides dispatched from Uber or another ride-sharing app. That's all they're insured for and that's all local laws will allow because they don't have status as licensed taxi drivers in a licensed vehicle. A customer can hand me cash and nobody gets a piece except the govern…

(French) VTC may actually pick up anyone on their own terms providing the ride was booked in advance by the customer (ie. they can't pick someone in the street). The customer may order through a ride-sharing app, or through any other means, eg. by phone, email, whatever.

What Uber forbids is building up such a clientele from customers it brought through the app.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#128

Post by freeone3000 »

ampdepolymerase wrote: post #123
oarsinsync wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having more than one job doesn't mean I'm necessarily self employed. I could work at a supermarket during the mornings, and a cornershop in the evenings, and still be an employee in both cases.

But you cannot simultaneously work for both.

That's a limitation of humanity, not a property of employment.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#129

Post by reaperducer »

WalterBright wrote: post #124
danboarder wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people I know who are trying this gig economy part-time can pick their own "clientele": Uber, Lyft, Postmates, Door Dash, etc... they work for whichever client they want, on their own schedule. As an "employee" of Uber, I doubt they will want you working for competitors.

Since Uber drivers are using their own equipment (cars), that also means they are not employees.

Since Uber drivers are using their own equipment (cars), that also means they are not employees.

This is not true. There are plenty of professions where employees bring some or all of their own equipment.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#130

Post by punk-coder »

WalterBright wrote: post #124
danboarder wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people I know who are trying this gig economy part-time can pick their own "clientele": Uber, Lyft, Postmates, Door Dash, etc... they work for whichever client they want, on their own schedule. As an "employee" of Uber, I doubt they will want you working for competitors.

Since Uber drivers are using their own equipment (cars), that also means they are not employees.

Is this different than if I worked as an employee at a pizza restaurant as a delivery driver and I use my own personal car for making the deliveries?
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