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The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

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Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#311

Post by jvanderbot »

chrischen wrote: post #307
jvanderbot wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The allegation is not copying, the allegation is fraudulent agreements with US companies, and dishonest corporate espionage. Can anyone really develop new technology, bring it to market, have it immediately brought by a competitor with zero R&D investment, and expect to compete? Is there something that is supposed to be magical about US technology that this scenario does not apply?

The articles cites some of the examples as "taking a photo of a disassembled circuit board" and "copying source code." While I agree copying source code is bad, but doing so and maintaining someone else's code is a monumental task.

I think design, prototyping, commercialization, and iterations are a bigger task than maintaining an active product line. It's not 100% of the work when you can simply copy someone's work, but it might be 80%

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#312

Post by jvanderbot »

Kbelicius wrote: post #287
jvanderbot wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that the Chinese people would not have benefitted, had the alleged activities not occurred? If so, then they are a sort of state-level robin-hood. If not, then the theft was greed and treachery. I have no reason to believe that this was necessary for progress.

Had the alleged activities not occurred? Without a doubt the Chines people wound not have benefited as much. > I have no reason to believe that this was necessary for progress. What are the reason that you believe that this is not necessary for progress? There doesn't exist a single example of technologically advanced country that did not jump start its technological development by using protectionist policies and/or…

And the illegal instances, when discovered, should be punished.

I guess I dont buy the argument that China and Chinese citizens would not have benefitted from legal transfer of knowledge and providing a useful service to the world exporting mineral wealth, importing food, oil, and tech, creating supply chain expertise to be cooperative partners in worldwide manufacturing booms, and paying experts to relocate (above board!) to China to teach the next generation.

This is 95% of what they are doing anyway. Its the remaining 5% of theft and espionage that is fair game for prosecution.

I guess I dont understand the apologists who think we should eschew legal action against the 5% just because "everyone does it".

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#313

Post by resters »

totalZero wrote: post #252
resters wrote: post #139

Ironically, this is an attempt by the Trump administration to steal IP from China. US firms are behind in 5G because they have sat on the sidelines while Huawei engineered the chipsets. It's tremendously ironic that these charges will likely allow US firms to steal money and/or IP from Huawei through what is for all intents and purposes the Trump administration's fiat. Worse yet, as has been the pattern with the Trum…

Hold up, hold up. Did you just describe Meng Wanzhou, the CFO of Huawei, as "a journalist"? If you're gonna peddle a biased narrative, put some effort into making it appear reasonable.

My narrative had one factual problem, Meng's job title, but it is not biased.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#314

Post by Seenso »

addicted wrote: post #282
Fragoel2 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because its cheap, if you only look at the immediate profit without considering the long term implications

The long term implications have been that American companies are richer than ever before.

> The long term implications have been that American companies are richer than ever before.

That's medium term. Long term is Comac and Huawei drive down Boeing and Apple's market share until they're bit players in their industries (or go out of business altogether).

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#315

Post by vorpalhex »

wcarron wrote: post #41
vorpalhex wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not only lower cost but have more features and/or better performance Yeah, many of these vendors do improve upon the original products quite a bit so even while initial versions can be shoddy knockoffs, later editions are often times improved compared to the original. > Its hard not to see a lot of them as sort of a Robin Hood. They're definitely profiting, and they're doing it partially through lower worker standa…

If they're exposing the flaws of western capitalism, I view that as a positive. That they are also acting for profit doesn't negate the value of forcing incumbent US megacorps to actually get off their butts and invest in improving products. You said it yourself: later editions are improved often times. Yes, some of this gain is due to lower worker standard, but I highly doubt ATT, VZ, etc. are really maximizing for…

Those ATT workers sleeping 8 to a garage and pitching themselves off buildings sure is a dang tragedy.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#317

Post by mattmanser »

oh_sigh wrote: post #309
mattmanser wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, read about it if you want. Yours really is another ironic comment. The British at least tried to stop it by making it illegal to take the machines out of the country The Americans sent the machines to China themselves to save a few bucks on labor.

I have "read about it", and nothing I read has seemed to justify China's wholesale tech stealing extravaganza. Modern export restrictions are akin to making it illegal to take machines out of a country. Even if it was somehow exactly the same thing happening, saying "you did this 200 years ago so I'm going to do the same thing now" isn't any kind of acceptable reasoning. Mauritania can't say that they are cool to hav…

Is it really stealing? It's ideas, it's not a human right. America has MADE it illegal, forced it through with their trade deals. Enforced anti-free trade copyright and ip ideals on everyone else to try and protect their advantage. One rule for them, 'free' trade for everyone else apart from knowledge, of course. One rule that they themselves ignored in their ascendancy, using those same 'illegal' means China uses.

It's just history repeating itself, delude yourself however you want that Amrrica holds some moral high ground by holding life improving knowledge to ransom.

I'm no China fan, but Inthis defending America is pathetic.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#318

Post by virtue3 »

sand_castles wrote: post #157
tatrajim wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note how all comments citing US industrial espionage fail to mention that the young U.S. was at war with Great Britain from 1776-83 and again in 1812 when the Brits burned much of Washington, D.C. is the contemporary parallel that China is now asserting they are at war with the U.S. and therefore can appropriate technology at will?

Same thing can be said about the US trying to overthrow the CCP during Mao when they banned food export during their great famine to try and trigger a revolution to remove them from power. Invaded Chinese sovereign territory during the Korean war and got beat back into the current border of South Korea. Supported a western friendly government during WW2 to take over China. In International relations there are no rule…

I think you have it very wrong:

"After the first two months of war, South Korean Army (ROKA) and the US forces rapidly dispatched to Korea were on the point of defeat. As a result, the ROKA and US troops retreated to a small area behind a defensive line known as the Pusan Perimeter. In September 1950, an amphibious UN counter-offensive was launched at Incheon, and cut off many KPA troops in South Korea. Those who escaped envelopment and capture were forced back north. UN forces invaded North Korea in October 1950 and moved rapidly towards the Yalu River—the border with China—but on 19 October 1950, Chinese forces of the People's Volunteer Army (PVA) crossed the Yalu and entered the war.[51] The surprise Chinese intervention triggered a retreat of UN forces back below the 38th Parallel by late December."

I can't find anything related to US/UN forces invading. But this is most likely a western view of the war. China looks like anything but just standing idly by during the war (did not realize that China was deeply involved in the Korean War before).

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#319

Post by virtue3 »

petjuh wrote: post #278
tatrajim wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might do well to visit the Flying Tigers Museum in Guilin to get a sense of what the U.S. did in China to save the Chinese from Japanese invasion. https://visitguilin.org/things-to-do/guilin-attractions/flyi... And if you insist on applying 18th and 19th century situations to current IP theft, then logically you should also be willing to accept what the British did to America: burn the capital. Is Huawei's IP har…

Didn't America attack british colonies in Canada in 1812? I thought America was the aggressor in that war and Britain just retaliated.

ehhh. Debatable. There's a lot of factors that led to it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#320

Post by AnimalMuppet »

petjuh wrote: post #278
tatrajim wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might do well to visit the Flying Tigers Museum in Guilin to get a sense of what the U.S. did in China to save the Chinese from Japanese invasion. https://visitguilin.org/things-to-do/guilin-attractions/flyi... And if you insist on applying 18th and 19th century situations to current IP theft, then logically you should also be willing to accept what the British did to America: burn the capital. Is Huawei's IP har…

Didn't America attack british colonies in Canada in 1812? I thought America was the aggressor in that war and Britain just retaliated.

> Didn't America attack british colonies in Canada in 1812?

Yes.

> I thought America was the aggressor in that war and Britain just retaliated.

It's more complicated than that. Britain tried to prohibit America from trading with France, as part of their war against Napoleon. America thought that was against international law. Britain also had a habit of seizing sailors off of American ships and forcing them into service in the Royal Navy, which the US regarded as extremely over the line. The British were also (pre-war, IIUC) arming Native Americans on the US western frontier.

Eventually, the US declared war. But I'm not sure that makes them the aggressor, at least not 100%...

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