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Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

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Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#131
post #92
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or not you believe in helping others is a personal choice. Most societies across the globe and throughout history have recognised the need for community & solidarity in order to survive & thrive. > Such parents have shown they have no limiting factor... You make it sound like there’s an infinite loop of childbirth which will eventually use up every last dollar in the world, but that’s not what happens in real…

>You make it sound like there’s an infinite loop of childbirth which will eventually use up every last dollar in the world, It's not infinite, but we cannot provide every child in the world with the same standard of living as that had by the average Norwegian, for example. And given that a couple chose to give birth to a kid even though they could easily see that they can't provide for the child and society can't pro…

> we cannot provide every child in the world with the same standard of living as that had by the average Norwegian,

That's a straw man - that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about much more achievable aims, such as children not being hungry and not living in unhealthy housing. Many interventions to reduce poverty are relatively low cost. We’re certainly not talking Teslas & Scandinavian design for all.

On zero sum games, you’re talking about economics here and if anything is an example of non-zero-sum game, it’s economics and monetary theory. Large amounts of wealth and economic potential are created pretty much every minute.

Your example of sending your child to a better school isn’t really accurate for a few reasons. There is a practical, real world limit on school fees. At a certain level of income you would have been able to afford the best school possible, hired tutors, etc… and any further earning would not make a difference. You personally might not be at that level, but a lot of the progressive ideas for taxation target those who are exactly in that situation.

The wealth taxes being proposed by a couple of the US Democratic nominees would kick in at the level of millionaires, who are far removed from scraping together every last dollar for the college fund. Other tax changes would certainly not have “dramatic” negative impacts on tax payers, many might see gains.

The preschool/school example is great, especially as you brought up Norway! You have a problem of having to pay to send children to school. That’s the problem, not that any tax changes might jeopardise that. So let’s solve that problem!

In Norway you wouldn’t have to worry about affording preschool as they are all state funded, even the private ones. You pay a small additional contribution at most, if you can afford to, but that’s capped by the local government and about $350 a month. The schools are free (you pay a similar amount for after school babysitting if you need it) and all roughly a similar good standard. University is similar. So your problem of having to afford 20 years or so of education disappears entirely. Which is pretty awesome, plus your healthcare costs also don't exist and you have much more money for discretionary spending. A lot of Norwegians have cabins in the mountains and boats in the fjords, and it's not because they pay low taxes and ignore child poverty.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#132
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will agree that it's a very unfortunately situation, but I'm not going to lower the standard of living of my own family that limits their chances of having their best life so as to provide for the child of a stranger who doesn't give the same care and thought to me and mine. Where does this argument end? For example if you end up needing to live in a rest home and your family can't afford or refuses to take care…

>For example if you end up needing to live in a rest home and your family can't afford or refuses to take care of you, why should my tax dollars go to help you out? Your tax dollars shouldn't. I would have to be a real asshole who has no empathy and care for you to live my life in a way that I end up destitute in my old age and expect you to sacrifice your family's well being so I can live my life selfishly and greed…

> You might phrase it like that, but every single day in every single country that provides a generous safety net someone dies whose life could have been extended by some amount of time if only the country had spent more money on doing so.

This is a nonsensical argument. Said safety net is often the reason why people don't die, because as a whole it's cheaper to prevent people from getting to the point of destitution than it is to pull them out of it.

And your first argument is nonsensical too. Because a lot of the time it's simply a roll of the dice whether or not our health nosedives. By your argument if you get in an accident, you would be an asshole to expect other people to help you out in a time of crisis.

That's not having no empathy, that's having a nihilistic worldview and expecting everyone to subscribe to your 'every person for themselves' mentality.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#133
post #130
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't live in a post scarcity society. As such it's not possible to support every kid to a high standard of living unless you limit the number of kids. I also want to point out that they don't pay taxes to their city, county, state, and country. There have been several studies by the CBO[0 - see the chart on page 31] that show that the lower 60% of households are not net tax payers at the federal level to such an…

We do not live in a post-scarcity society, but the US is rich enough to guarantee every child a standard of living that includes adequate food, shelter, and education. When these discussions come up, I often think about this simple chart: https://i.redd.it/pg5w8ws3b0o31.jpg If the distribution of wealth, i.e. access to resources, were what 92% of Americans considered ideal, we'd need the minimal social programs you s…

How do you propose changing the wealth distribution?

Changing post-tax income distribution is fairly straightforward (in theory), but it's less clear to me how to change wealth distribution.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to impossible to figure out the "suitability" of a person for something until they actually did that thing, in this case become a parent. Just like dating and marriage can be very different. Hindsight is 20/20.

Come on, you can easily determine most of the time that a person is too poor to have a kid. (The other cases are usually an exception.)

You missed my point. You can become poor after having a child, due to good choices.

A perfect example is when one of the parents succumbs to addiction that wasn't present before the child.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#135
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relative poverty is really a proxy for social exclusion/marginalization. You don't solve "poverty" by giving people more money, you solve it by strenghtening local communities, building solid institutions and enhancing social capital. This is the best foundation for solid middle-class values, which in turn are the catalyst for self-sustaining growth in incomes. (Of course meaning "poverty" in this relative sense, as…

What does this mean in practice? In Los Angeles, local communities are some of the strongest in the world. No one would say that poverty is solved, this city is known as the city of the working poor.

Do they have stable, two parent families? That seems to be one of the most significant pillars of functioning society.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to impossible to figure out the "suitability" of a person for something until they actually did that thing, in this case become a parent. Just like dating and marriage can be very different. Hindsight is 20/20.

PavlovsCat, mind sending me an email? Email on my profile.

No thanks. I can't help being intelligent, but I can help setting foot into ivory towers.

> He would have liked to continue talking about his mother. He did not suppose, from what he could remember of her, that she had been an unusual woman, still less an intelligent one; and yet she had possessed a kind of nobility, a kind of purity, simply because the standards that she obeyed were private ones. Her feelings were her own, and could not be altered from outside. It would not have occurred to her that an action which is ineffectual thereby becomes meaningless. If you loved someone, you loved him, and when you had nothing else to give, you still gave him love. When the last of the chocolate was gone, his mother had clasped the child in her arms. It was no use, it changed nothing, it did not produce more chocolate, it did not avert the child's death or her own; but it seemed natural to her to do it. The refugee woman in the boat had also covered the little boy with her arm, which was no more use against the bullets than a sheet of paper. The terrible thing that the Party had done was to persuade you that mere impulses, mere feelings, were of no account, while at the same time robbing you of all power over the material world. When once you were in the grip of the Party, what you felt or did not feel, what you did or refrained from doing, made literally no difference. Whatever happened you vanished, and neither you nor your actions were ever heard of again. You were lifted clean out of the stream of history. And yet to the people of only two generations ago this would not have seemed all-important, because they were not attempting to alter history. They were governed by private loyalties which they did not question. What mattered were individual relationships, and a completely helpless gesture, an embrace, a tear, a word spoken to a dying man, could have value in itself. The proles, it suddenly occurred to him, had remained in this condition. They were not loyal to a party or a country or an idea, they were loyal to one another. For the first time in his life he did not despise the proles or think of them merely as an inert force which would one day spring to life and regenerate the world. The proles had stayed human. They had not become hardened inside. They had held on to the primitive emotions which he himself had to re-learn by conscious effort. And in thinking this he remembered, without apparent relevance, how a few weeks ago he had seen a severed hand lying on the pavement and had kicked it into the gutter as though it had been a cabbage-stalk.

-- George Orwell, "Nineteen-Eightyfour"

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#138
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is having children a fundamental right? It's a hobby. In fact, in this case I'd consider it worse than many other hobbies because you are making another person, statistically speaking, suffer because you want to have a pet project that you cannot afford.

You're just making things up. Once that child grows up it's no longer a "pet project" and contributes to the continued existence of society. Spending resources on the child is an investment into the future productivity of that child when it enters the workforce. The idea that such a logical investment is considered uneconomical is a fatal flaw in modern society. When you consider that the type of family (highly educa…

Well, if we are talking about poverty and inequality, the child may be a net negative for society, even on the ongoing basis before you consider the initial investment.

Plenty of people are still going to have children, anyway; if we at some point find ourselves short of children, we can bring the incentives back (or just have more immigration). But I don't think it's likely to happen over the long term... the days of needing to make the maximum number of factory workers and cannot fodder for the motherland are over, at least for a time. Having children is totally a hobby.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#139
post #129
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is having children a fundamental right? It's a hobby. In fact, in this case I'd consider it worse than many other hobbies because you are making another person, statistically speaking, suffer because you want to have a pet project that you cannot afford.

Oh yes, lets get back to discussing eugenics instead of discussing our slow descent back into feudalism which creates such issues in the first place. This discussion has already made good progress 100 years ago. Then something happened and suddenly stopped it. Don't remember what it was...

What the heck does this have to do with eugenics or feudalism? If you want to practice horse archery, all power to you, but you better find the money to pay for it. It's inane to claim the right to be a horse archer with government support, or blame the lack of means for a good warhorse on increasing inequality. Now, if the government/society at large feels our light cavalry reserve is critically low given all the Canadian heavy infantry, it would be a-ok for the society to subsidize aspiring horse archers to a necessary extent. Then, and only then. Otherwise, you are free to pay for it yourself - all power to you!

The same exact reasoning applies to having children. I don't see any good explicit reason to produce more children across the board, in fact I see the reverse (be it global warming and the per capita emissions in the first world, the recent electoral successes based on the plight of poor workers suffering due to globalism, automation, whatever); plus there's also plenty of willing immigrants that would solve the governments/societies problem, if there even was one. So, the government has no good reason whatsoever to subsidize child-making. If someone wants to do it as a hobby, all power to them!

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