Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#61

Post by SkyBelow » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:33 PM UTC

yesenadam wrote: post #50

SkyBelow wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find mention of Maslow's pyramid in these sorts of discussions interesting because people seem to forget a few specific needs ranked on it that become extremely hard to handle because the purchase of such is often illegal and the production of such cannot be made interpersonal nor automated and scaled like any other need can be. It is so controversial that if you go check the wikipedia article, they don't even rank…

>I find mention of Maslow's pyramid in these sorts of discussions interesting because people seem to forget a few specific needs ranked on it So why don't you remind us specifically which needs you're talking about? Then it becomes "that specific need".. Strange you didn't mention what it is. Why?

Why? Why does someone allude to a point without saying it. Perhaps because even mentioning it brings with it a certain level of controversy and thus speaking about it indirectly allows more focus on the topic at hand. Also, while there is one in particular, there are other needs listed that are often not given the full consideration (though the others rank higher of the hierarchy, and thus if the discussion is only on ensuring people have the lowest level met, the other needs aren't within scope).

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#62

Post by zozbot234 » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:34 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #51

What does poverty mean in our world? I would think the poorest person in any western nation has more money and access to more resources than pretty much anyone in prior history. Also goes for many developing nations, too. Is there something else going on with poverty besides only amount of money on hand?

Relative poverty is really a proxy for social exclusion/marginalization. You don't solve "poverty" by giving people more money, you solve it by strenghtening local communities, building solid institutions and enhancing social capital. This is the best foundation for solid middle-class values, which in turn are the catalyst for self-sustaining growth in incomes.

(Of course meaning "poverty" in this relative sense, as opposed to the very real material deprivation that's common in least-developed countries, which often is addressed to a surprising extent simply by providing more financial capital.)

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#63

Post by dijit » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

aty268 wrote: post #52

My dad was a very blue collar banker without a college degree at Bear Stearns, and we went bankrupt when 08 bubble burst. We moved from our multi million dollar house to live in a trailer park where I slept in a bed with my brother and ate shitty food throughout middle and high school. I would be really interested to have someone study the long term effects of it on me, because I think it's actually made me extremely…

I can relate, somewhat.

My ambition is (was) borne out of my absolute drive to never be in the same situation I was when I was younger. Also allowed me to dig myself unapologetically into my work and it was a way of escaping when I was younger too.

But I’m 30 now, my ambition is waning. And a lot of what I learned during my “hot passion” years is already sort of old and nothing is truly fundamental in my area (devops/SRE/sysadmin).

If I had one bit of advice, it would be to try pacing yourself and think long term, I wish I’d done university and bitten the bullet of it. I recently failed a google interview for instance because I didn’t think about something foundational in sorting. And that really struck me hard. If I’d gone to university and actually focused on studying I would have been much better. But I’m so risk averse that I would never risk taking time off working to study.

I think eventually you’ll settle. Based on my single data point. I’d prepare for that.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#64

Post by aaron695 » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

Poor people need more money.

There is nothing else to this article other than this tautology.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#65

Post by ailideex » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:41 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #53

ailideex wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In discussions about low income families I often see somebody comment along the lines of blaming the parents for making bad choices and choosing to have children they couldn't afford/care for/want. So just to be clear on some points before I get accused of holding positions I do not hold. I am all for helping children who were let down by their parents. I don't think they should be condemned. I also grew up very po…

Either people have agency ... Or things are more nuanced than this view allows. What if people in general have some agency, but not always enough to counteract the larger scale actions that affect them?

> What if people in general have some agency, but not always enough to counteract the larger scale actions that affect them?

Would one of those actions be the urge to have sex? If not then not sure what we are talking about here.

I think the majority of people who have children they can't provide for bear the responsibility for that and I don't really see where in that you want to plug your nuance - but if you have something more than "there is nuance" I would love to hear it.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#66

Post by Spooky23 » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:41 PM UTC

lopmotr wrote: post #23

nomel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for making bad choices and choosing to have children they couldn't afford/care for/want Also, this belittles the cases where one parent was making a great choice, by leaving the other.

That doesn't correct the problems caused by making the worse choice of having children with that unsuitable parent in the first place.

What awful point of view.

What's the consequence for being deemed unsuitable? Who determines that you are unworthy of reproduction? What other fundamental rights should unsuitable people be deprived of?

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#67

Post by nessus42 » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:42 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #45

nessus42 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I find it hard to believe that the cost of healthy food is a terrible problem these days with poverty. (In the US.) Housing, heating, clothing, education, living in a community that fosters wellbeing, etc., sure! But food? Rice and beans is one of the healthiest things you can eat, and it's very cheap. Okay, well rice and beans might bore you to death, but you won't starve. Add some froze…

It's not just knowledge, but availability. Food deserts are a real thing, as are crap apartments with dysfunctional appliances (freezers can save you a bunch of money, but only if they work reliably), etc.

I was responding to the claim that subsidies to grow the right kind of food, rather than corn, etc., might help.

I mentioned the issues of housing and community, etc., that are required to actually obtain and cook food. I don't see how subsidies to farmers to grow healthier foods are going to solve the problems that you mention.

I.e., I'm not denying that people living in poverty don't end up malnourished, but that would seem to stem from lack of good housing and community, not with healthy food itself being too expensive.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#68

Post by claudeganon » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:44 PM UTC

rdlecler1 wrote: post #7

Housing is an enormous tax, and rent seeking just transfers money from the poor to the rich. Rather than giving everyone money, I would prefer to see a market solution where we greatly lower the costs for things at the bottom of Maslow’s pyramid.

> I would prefer to see a market solution where we greatly lower the costs...

This doesn’t work and Europe already figured out social democracy. Trying to reinvent the wheel with the “more Capitalism” approach is why poverty persists like it does in America.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#69

Post by fzeroracer » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:44 PM UTC

wang_li wrote: post #46

altacc wrote: post #3

In discussions about low income families I often see somebody comment along the lines of blaming the parents for making bad choices and choosing to have children they couldn't afford/care for/want. This is used as a reason not to provide any social support to those families as they see it as rewarding bad behaviour. But these children didn't make those choices and they now exist in their circumstances through no faul…

You cannot rationally hold the belief that people can be allowed to have as many children anytime they want and that all children will be provided for regardless of the ability of their individual parents to provide for them. Such parents have shown they have no limiting factor, so the end result is that all children will be poor as you divert greater and greater resources from parents who act in more responsible way…

> I will agree that it's a very unfortunately situation, but I'm not going to lower the standard of living of my own family that limits their chances of having their best life so as to provide for the child of a stranger who doesn't give the same care and thought to me and mine.

Where does this argument end? For example if you end up needing to live in a rest home and your family can't afford or refuses to take care of you, why should my tax dollars go to help you out? You should just be thrown out into the streets until you die to reduce the burden you put on society.

As many countries have justifiably chosen, they consider this to be an extremely barbaric approach.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#70

Post by aty268 » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:46 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #63

aty268 wrote: post #52

My dad was a very blue collar banker without a college degree at Bear Stearns, and we went bankrupt when 08 bubble burst. We moved from our multi million dollar house to live in a trailer park where I slept in a bed with my brother and ate shitty food throughout middle and high school. I would be really interested to have someone study the long term effects of it on me, because I think it's actually made me extremely…

I can relate, somewhat. My ambition is (was) borne out of my absolute drive to never be in the same situation I was when I was younger. Also allowed me to dig myself unapologetically into my work and it was a way of escaping when I was younger too. But I’m 30 now, my ambition is waning. And a lot of what I learned during my “hot passion” years is already sort of old and nothing is truly fundamental in my area (devops…

That's good advice, interesting you didn't finish college. I'm working full time as a Software Engineer now, I just kind of "worked" my way out of school. I would bet this is pretty common among people who grew up poor.