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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#731

Post by asdff »

Fomite wrote: post #611
asdff wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People doing PCR for 6 years are probably generating a pretty big dataset for analysis... Bioinformatics is an entire field. The lines between molecular biology, genetics, physics, chemistry, statistics, and computer science are getting very blurry these days. Plenty of bio phds get hired for data scientist roles in industry. No one is going to knock you for leaving for industry these days. Anyone who is a big deal e…

PCR doesn't necessarily generate large data sets. And as someone who works in the field, there's definitely a stigma against students not aiming for PI positions at R1 institutions. There's some practical reasons for that - students who go into industry are less useful for "empire building", but it's also cultural. I'm lucky enough to be in a field where this isn't as true, but I'm faculty in a multidisciplinary cent…

There might be a stigma in certain places that are becoming isolated from the field, but I would be flabbergasted to hear of any stigma in biology existing on the west or east costs where biotech is, where professors are regularly collaborating directly with biotech companies, where professors are regularly founding their own biotech startups, where graduate programs are offering internship opportunites with private companies, where graduate programs are regularly hosting symposiums with industry representatives, and where departments regularly see the majority of their graduating classes go into industry rather than academia. I think this worldview is two decades out of date.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#732

Post by disqard »

ng7j5d9 wrote: post #171
ghaff wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can see, tenured professor at an elite school is a pretty good gig. But it's a really tough gig to land, may not pay very well compared to private industry (assuming it's in a well-compensated field), and may force their partner to live somewhere the other employment opportunities aren't great because your own job mobility is likely pretty limited.

Feels almost like the minor league / major league situation in professional sports. Minor league baseball players are generally not paid a living wage, and major league players start around half a million dollars a year. Obviously many players are doing everything they can to reach that dream job (even if most fail). That idea of being a comfortable tenured professor at a great school is a dream for many. And obvious…

This captures the spirit of academia fairly well. The thought "that could be me" is a powerful factor indeed.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#733

Post by n4r9 »

uncle_j wrote: post #487
n4r9 wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't justify that sort of systematic pressure. An African American is much more likely to be a [edit: convicted] murderer than a white American, but that doesn't make it ok to cross the road whenever you see one.

> That doesn't justify that sort of systematic pressure. If I were a parent I would be trying to mitigate the risk to my child. As I previously stated it is unfair but not unfounded. It cannot be sexism if it is based in fact. > An African American is much more likely to be a murderer than a white American, but that doesn't make it ok to cross the road whenever you see one. * I don't live in the US, I am from the UK.…

The statistic for how likely a sex offender is to be male strikes me as unjustified here in three ways.

Firstly, I doubt many parents actually do do their research on this and use such a statistic to inform their decision. More likely it will be based on gut feeling.

Secondly, the probabilities are the wrong way round. More relevant how likely a given man is to be a sex offender, vs the likelihood for a given woman. If both probabilities are very tiny then despite their relative magnitudes there are other things to worry about.

Thirdly, "sex offender" is an extremely broad term and the great majority of those offenses would not have involved nursery age children.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#734

Post by thefz »

detoxdetox wrote: post #79
entee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

What about letting every woman decide for herself on where she wants to direct her work instead on keeping on making definitions and deciding what is good for them.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#735

Post by thefz »

lordnacho wrote: post #196

One thing that she touched on that I've thought a lot about recently is the age at which we have kids. My father passed away a couple of weeks ago, and I compare him to his brother. My uncle had his first kid 10 years younger than my dad, and he ended up with the fourth one being older than me. He's got 10 grandchildren, the oldest of which is an adult now. My dad's grandchildren will never know him in any real way.…

> I wish we could have an economy where this was easier. Say you could have your kids early, in your 20s, yet still progress your career. Perhaps pay for it with working to an older age

And who will pick up for missed work, absence, and economical expenses of such a model?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#736

Post by slumdev »

Cpoll wrote: post #371
slumdev wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would happen in medicine if the public generally knew the truth. The risk of a medical error rises by about 1% for every year a doctor is out of school. Either AMA's continuing education requirements are lacking, or something else is at work.

I've heard that number before, where is it from? Does it control for the idea that more experienced practitioners tend to be called on for more complex operations?

This article suggests that while errors increase with the age of the practitioner, mortality does not. The difference is more likely to result from differences in training. There is also a lot of variation between individuals, with some older doctors far outperforming their younger counterparts.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/should-doctors-age-ma...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#737

Post by xerxex »

DreamScatter wrote: post #729
xerxex wrote: post #373

Her argument just shows how entrenched sexism runs in our society. Anecdotal evidence/sample size one story: My wife has a doctorate in chemistry and 2 postdocs under her belt, but she had to leave her field purely due to sexism she encountered during her post docs. The PI (her boss) was quite abusive, outright sexist and a horrible racist. My wife wanted to move on to industry jobs but her wouldn't let her leave. So…

Academia is generally abusive, regardless of whether you are male or female.

That's very true...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#738

Post by [deleted] »

virtuous_signal wrote: post #514
HammockWarrior wrote: post #397

Seems like much of the problem could be solved by just having the working world chill the f' out for women and for men. For example, a 32 hour workweek along with generous paid parental leaves. Everyone should have time for a life outside of work, not just women of childbearing age. Also, The whole idea of having young people work like dogs in order to have a shot at making partner, or gaining tenure, or gaining a me…

32 hour workweeks might work but there will always be the issue of defection . If a company allows employees to take unlimited leave, then worker A who avails him/herself of it, will be at a disadvantage to worker B who keeps working like a dog, when it comes time for promotions. If company A mandates 32 hour workweeks, then they will eventually lose out to their competitor company B who mandates 40 hours (or more in…

[deleted]

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#739

Post by throwaway894345 »

alexchamberlain wrote: post #584
AlexCoventry wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect that would be difficult under current US discrimination law What statutes do you believe would stand in the way of an organization offering excellent daycare services to its employees, as suggested in the OP?

I believe the GP was simply saying you couldn’t only offer it to women.

This is correct; that's what I intended to communicate.
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