An alternative argument for why women leave STEM • Hacker News Board

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#471

Post by username90 » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:05 AM UTC

satyrnein wrote: post #334

codingmess wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a burden, it is a privilege. For dads to step up, as feminists demand, mothers would have to give up that privilege. And if you believe the feminist narrative that it is dads forcing mothers to take care of the kids, consider that most women chose their jobs and the expected salary long before they meet the future father of their kids. Man choose careers that pay less, so the fathers end up having to earn t…

This sounds sort of like "no, you see, I can't possibly help you with this, because it's such a privilege for you."

Being able to stay at home is a privilege. My brother, my dad and some of my friends took a few years off to stay at home when the mother worked, I don't see how being able to do that is not a privilege, all of them did it because they wanted to and liked it.

However all of them experienced a lot of sexism from being a stay at home dad. So an alternative explanation to the skew between men and women at work could be that men face so much sexism at home so they have no other option than to just slave away for 40 years. The people I know were lucky to have a progressive wife with a high paying career and enough mental fortitude to shrug off the constant verbal jabs at you, most men are not that lucky.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#472

Post by cmonnow » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:05 AM UTC

maire wrote: post #428

detoxdetox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

Non-working mothers is a modern anomaly. It used to be a sign of wealth for a man to have a non-working wife. That is why the newly affluent men of the mid-20th century wanted it so much. They came out of the great depression, fought a great war, and wanted a wife at home. You should not judge all of history by this one era. The work of child care used to fall on the entire extended family. The nuclear family reduced…

> Non-working mothers is a modern anomaly.

Working mothers is a modern anomaly.

Prior to industrialization, most women were home-makers.

And home-making was no slacking off either. Managing expenses, food (storage & cooking), raising children (feeding, teaching, playing), social bonding (neighbors, communities) etc. It kept their hands full.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#473

Post by Consultant32452 » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:06 AM UTC

DavidVoid wrote: post #303

detoxdetox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

>It is high time to recognize that 2 children is still a lot of effort and make room for Mothers to take care of their own children. It's high time that fathers start putting in some more work in that department too. Sweden has 480 days of paid parental leave, and each parent has exclusive right to 90 of those days. Have fathers spend some time raising their kids instead of just letting their wives do it and you'll s…

This is a very feminized view of child rearing. Fatherhood's traditional gender role in raising children is to provide resources and protection. If you don't recognize that as "parenting" then you are missing the plot. Hugs are great, but not nearly as great as food and shelter.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#474

Post by jacobwilliamroy » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:10 AM UTC

Proziam wrote: post #366

commandlinefan wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, no, it’s the other way around - in less egalitarian countries, women are more likely to pursue science and technical careers.

I find it shocking that people so boldly cite the opposite as being true. I can't seem to discern a benefit to so confidently push a belief that doesn't hold up in reality. It's not as if the Nordic countries aren't doing pretty well, so why are people so resistant to the reality? It's perfectly understandable that less economic and social pressures lead to people choosing things they actually want. It just happens t…

For the women I know, working at a sausagefest like comp/sci or engineering can be really unpleasant, and I'm sure it sucks 10x for women who believe they have to work STEM in order to gain the autonomy they need. My sister lived two years in an all male house with two male landlords and she almost lost her damn mind: the landlords kept trying to set her up with her creepy neighbor, who himself was trading sexual favors with the landlords in order to get out of cleaning, which my sister did more than anybody. The landlords were always giving special treats and priveleges to "their boys", even the ones who didnt pay rent on time. Obviously, #notallmen, obviously. It is unsurprising to me that the biggest female STEM recruitment is happening in places where women have no other way to get the autonomy they need.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#475

Post by war1025 » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:11 AM UTC

sethammons wrote: post #422

downerending wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you could leave your children in the care of educated professionals in child development... That sounds wonderful, but it's economically impossible, except for the rich. The cost would be near or exceed what most people clear working a job.

Yup. My wife and I were faced with the option of her contributing financially to the home and we pay for child care, or her being an at home mom. If she went to work, she would net $20 a week after paying for child care. Yeah, nope.

When we had just one kid, the math of my wife working or not worked out to basically what you found. If she was feeling engaged in what she was doing, we probably would have found someone to watch our daughter. But she wasn't really, so she stayed home.

Then we had twins.

There is a daycare just down the street that we looked into just for shits and giggles. A mere $550 / week if we wanted all three there full time.

That's a real big "hell no".

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#476

Post by uncle_j » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:12 AM UTC

wilg wrote: post #461

uncle_j wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're suggesting we should arrange society a specific way because of some connection to "biology". Nope. I didn't say that. > There is about 4 billion years of evolution and the thinking that it can be socially engineered away is a folly. I didn't make any statement on how to arrange society. I simply stated that I believe they would all eventually fail.

You called the expectation of men to be breadwinners a natural consequence of sexual dimorphism, and said it was folly to "engineer" it away. That is a statement about how you think society should be arranged and why. Also, if you believe _all_ arrangements of society will eventually fall, then wouldn't that make any arrangement acceptable to you? Including the one you were dismissing?

> You called the expectation of men to be breadwinners a natural consequence of sexual dimorphism, and said it was folly to "engineer" it away. That is a statement about how you think society should be arranged and why.

No it isn't. It is a statement of what I believe to be the truth. All the evidence and arguments around the topic I have seen and heard seem to lead in that direction. If you disagree with that conclusion that is fine.

However it doesn't mean that I believe that things should arranged in such a manner.

> Also, if you believe _all_ arrangements of society will eventually fall, then wouldn't that make any arrangement acceptable to you? Including the one you were dismissing?

I don't know. I wasn't saying anything about that. I was simply disagree that it is sexism. I don't buy into this the notion of "unconscious sexism".

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#477

Post by n4r9 » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

uncle_j wrote: post #469

n4r9 wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not one of those circumstances? Men find it extremely difficult to make a career as a nursery teacher, for example, because nursery schools and parents of young children don't trust men as a nurturing caregiver. It's a clear cut example of how a sexist view of men - biologically inspired or otherwise - is harmful to men.

That isn't sexism. There is a far higher likelihood that a sex offender is a man rather than a woman. While unfair it isn't unfounded fear and parents are naturally protective of their children.

That doesn't justify that sort of systematic pressure. An African American is much more likely to be a [edit: convicted] murderer than a white American, but that doesn't make it ok to cross the road whenever you see one.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#478

Post by war1025 » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

deyouz wrote: post #88

detoxdetox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

We should remember that woman != mother. Not all women are straight/want children/have children.

But a majority of women do fit into that category, so if you want to have more women in professional positions, their needs will necessarily dominate the conversation.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#479

Post by burlesona » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:14 AM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #196

One thing that she touched on that I've thought a lot about recently is the age at which we have kids. My father passed away a couple of weeks ago, and I compare him to his brother. My uncle had his first kid 10 years younger than my dad, and he ended up with the fourth one being older than me. He's got 10 grandchildren, the oldest of which is an adult now. My dad's grandchildren will never know him in any real way.…

I think about this a lot as well. My wife and I decided to have our first child at 30, which is fairly early compared to our peers. Economically it would have been better to wait, we’ve each had career opportunities we couldn’t take advantage of because of having children, and if somehow we could have waited until 40 I think we would have had an easier time economically.

But, physically and emotionally, I wish we could have had kids at 22 or so. Of course we hadn’t even met so this is pure wishful thinking. But still. Raising a family is a real joy, but it’s also very physically demanding (even for men), and the younger you are the easier the physical aspect is. Also, we know a small number of people who had children very young, and now in their 40s their children are grown. It’s a really fascinating relationship, with somewhat more ability to relate to each other and a really cool ability to live life together. Especially when this is across generations, it’s amazing to have an extended family with three generations not just alive but still well.

I have no idea how society could ever adjust to make something like that work out - I think it might be easier to “fix fertility” to give more people the option of starting a family in their 40s. But still, I wonder about it often.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#480

Post by pnako » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 2:14 AM UTC

e12e wrote: post #117

Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems to be typical sexism: there's work at work which is paid, and work at home which is not. Men do little enough of the latter, that doing the paid work isn't a problem. Women do such a large part of the former, that they feel the need to chose between which part get done. Sure, the positive way to change this, is to reduce the unpaid work (child care professionals are paid, c…

You are offering a solution to something that is not a problem, and you should probably question why you think that / where this ideology is coming from.

You need resources and work to care for your family. The fact that in some cases you are 'paid' (i.e. you have to trade labor) is completely irrelevant. Beaver families are not paid by anyone to care for their home and family.

You could, and can, completely trade out your labor such that you 'care' for your family by being a couple of lawyers completely outsourcing the work of raising your own kids to strangers. At which point I think you've failed as a civilized society. You're only acting as economic agents maximizing profit, and your country is not a country anymore, but an economy. I think America is already at this stage, and that's not a good thing.