Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#111

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:40 PM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #97

Tiktaalik wrote: post #54

I would strongly consider supporting a video game union, if only to help formalize the things that the good shops do and bring those practices industry wide. Personally I haven't done a day of overtime in seven years and I feel reasonably compensated but there are clearly other places out there that are still exploiting their workers. Improving worker input into production schedules and creating clear guidelines arou…

> creating more opportunities for young new grads to break in Just going to point out, everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder for new people to come in, not easier, by increasing the commitment an employer is expected to make to an employee, and by making it harder to remove employees that need to be removed but can't because of their seniority with the union.

It is the only way a union can raise wages for its members. But that won't work in the video game industry, there's no barriers to the industry.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#112

Post by lawnchair_larry » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #13

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many well known game developers disagree with this notion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIvHkaV6Ri8 that this is a huge problem. All the sources you see seem unhappy because those stories get the most attention, but it doesn't mean that those things are occurring often or everywhere.

John Carmack is not a "game developer", John Carmack is an independently wealthy man who sometimes develops game engines (or VR tech, as the case may be). Picking your random, above-99th-percentile literally-owns-multiple-Ferraris outlier and using him to discredit people who might be pulling $50K-$60K a year as line employees is downright disingenous.

But it’s still an important example, because a union would not have allowed John Carmack to exist, and we would have none of his fruits. If you read Masters of Doom, it will be obvious why.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#113

Post by sdenton4 » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #84

crdoconnor wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employers tend to be a lot more hostile to unions in the US. This manifests with deliberately spread FUD about unions (e.g. the ridiculous Walmart video), covert attempts to sabotage, depiction of schoolteachers as terrorists (by the Kentucky governor) and, in one rather extreme case, aerial bombardment of striking workers.

Beyond that, you can’t really compare US unions to European ones because of the virulent anti-communism of US politics. In Europe, following the war, left wing coalitions of socialists, communists, and left liberals secured major parliamentary victories for workers. In the US, by contrast, sector-wide bargaining was banned, strikes were limited, and anyone with vaguely Marxist sympathies was purged from politics, the…

Yeah, it's a great feedback loop: pass piles of laws making unions ineffective, then watch as workers complain about how their unions are ineffective. Add propaganda videos (a la walmart) to the mix, and stir.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#114

Post by terramex » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

Bootwizard wrote: post #103

usefulcat wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that kind of development model was that much of a liability, you'd think at least one studio or company would have figured that out and would now be killing it as a result. I suspect it's just one of many factors, and probably not that important by itself. The bottom line is that the supply of game developers has historically outpaced the demand. There are simply a lot of people who really want to make games, and…

CD Projekt Red has figured it out, but their company is funded by the Polish government...so I'd say they're in a unique position to be able to take their time.

They are also well known in polish industry for their hardcore crunches.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#115

Post by Tiktaalik » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #97

Tiktaalik wrote: post #54

I would strongly consider supporting a video game union, if only to help formalize the things that the good shops do and bring those practices industry wide. Personally I haven't done a day of overtime in seven years and I feel reasonably compensated but there are clearly other places out there that are still exploiting their workers. Improving worker input into production schedules and creating clear guidelines arou…

> creating more opportunities for young new grads to break in Just going to point out, everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder for new people to come in, not easier, by increasing the commitment an employer is expected to make to an employee, and by making it harder to remove employees that need to be removed but can't because of their seniority with the union.

The screen writers guild has some systems in place to ensure that a certain amount of scripts from 'new writers' have to be taken in. Not sure how effective that is, but that's a thing.

I was basically thinking about my present company that has done a great job of bringing in coops from local universities for work terms. We've had a great experience with this. However, this is one of the only games companies I've worked at that does it.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#116

Post by swalsh » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:46 PM UTC

For the most part, I have never felt threatened by offshore workers. I am more productive, and my code is typically better quality. However the general quality has been improving. I can see a day where a unionized programmer is just too expensive, and difficult to work with compared to un-unionized offshore workers.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#117

Post by tclancy » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

>Just yesterday we were all ogling over the salaries offered to engineers by the various top dogs in the valley

Which of those companies were video game makers?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#118

Post by Tiktaalik » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #75

umvi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA has a pretty bad track record when it comes to unions. In theory they are great, but in practice they get implemented really poorly. I think we need to examine how other countries do unions because I agree, the one union I was in for a short time (teachers' union in California - I was basically forced to join even though the job was only temporary) felt like a ball and chain around my ankle taking a cut of my pay…

My concern is most of the tech union type initiatives in the US are from ... existing US unions. These orgnizations are NOT the places to start.

As the article notes, in effect they have to be, since no one in the games industry has any experience with labour organizing. Outside help from an existing union is the way to jump start the process.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#119

Post by throwaway17_17 » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

meheleventyone wrote: post #80

throwaway17_17 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there in lies the problem. Most of the discussion opposed to union come from the actual software engineering aspect, but the unionization proposals are attempting to cover the multitude of sub-professions that compromise game development. It is often glossed over that actual engineers have vastly different options, priorities, and working conditions than these other workers. Carmack’s options should be seen as ad…

The concept is called solidarity. Workers with more leverage should have the backs of those with less rather than seeing them as an anchor.

I can understand the general philosophic argument for ‘worker’ solidarity, but in practice that is not how unions work. Union represent professions and then those unions often pool resource under a larger labor umbrella. It is why the the Screen Actors Guild is separate from Cinamatographer Guild, Screenwriters Guild, production laborers union, etc in the motion picture industry. Further it’s why plumbers, carpenters, electricians, etc have separate unions in the construction field. If software engineers feel they need the leverage of organized labor that is a decision these developers can make and then act on, but that is very different than suborning the needs a very particular profession to the needs and desires of complete separate groups.

As a note, the solidarity in these situations tend to come as reciprocal strike agreements, i.e. the SAG not working during the Screenwriters Guild strike in the last decade (I think it was post 2010 anyway)

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#120

Post by Tiktaalik » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

> but it's not like you don't have options in this industry...

The games industry over the last decade has been experiencing an incredible amount of consolidation so options have been if anything narrowing, as more and more game development jobs rely on working for Big Corp Publishers.

Game development is a unique ecosystem of tech. Sure programmers can pivot to working at Facebook or whatever, but lets be honest that the work and technology used is wildly different, and there's friction to that change.

Also worth noting that there's more to coders in games. What about the artists, producers, qa and other workers?