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Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

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Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#41
post #3

Can’t say for video game industry. But software engineers are both in hot demand and well compensated, as such, I personally and the people I know are mostly content and not likely to join an union.

It may be true that programmers at the top 5-10 tech companies are well compensated but the vast majority of tech workers (programmers and operations) work for enterprises and small shops where there are some really egregious practices and not particularly great compensation. Being in hot demand means little when these practices are universal in the industry. This is the perfect scenario for workers to get together to demand better treatment and ending of these sorts of practices:

Uncompensated overtime, On-call (if the work is important pay someone to be available to do it), Expectations of 24/7 uncompensated availability, H1-B use/abuse, Lack of training on systems workers are responsible for, Age discrimination, Lack of decent work environment (open plan offices), Lack of vacation options (sometimes masquerading as unlimited time off)

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many well known game developers disagree with this notion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIvHkaV6Ri8 that this is a huge problem. All the sources you see seem unhappy because those stories get the most attention, but it doesn't mean that those things are occurring often or everywhere.

Thanks for filling me in. My question wasn’t rhetorical, and if Carmack is right that some games literally couldn’t be made without crunch time, that does seem like a good argument that it’s not a failure even if some people find it intolerable.

He's not. They could be made. They'd just cost more.

The race-to-the-bottom pricing effect is not one caused by line developers and it's not caused by customers buying the games. It's caused by management and executives eating the seed corn. It's going to have to stop.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#43

Have you considered what your career will be like at age 48? 55? 62? It's true that software developers are well compensated and in high demand, that demand tapers off rapidly after 40, when ageism comes up. If you want to go into management, then it's climb the corporate ladder, and get promoted until you can't do your job. What if you want to stay an IC? Become the lone developer who can support a legacy react appl…

This seems like an argument against unions. I certainly don’t want to live in a world where somebody is guaranteed a wage or a job due to age or seniority. This just seems really entitled. It’s up to you to create value, regardless of age.

Mm. I sure do love to create value. That's certainly why I live. Not to, like, experience the world, or to do things I care about. Nope! I live to create value.

Work to live, not live to work. Well-run unions help workers do that, both young and old.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#44
post #3

Can’t say for video game industry. But software engineers are both in hot demand and well compensated, as such, I personally and the people I know are mostly content and not likely to join an union.

I wouldn't rule it out. Professional athletes have great unions. Hollywood screenwriters, actors, and directors have great unions (or guilds). Couldn't software engineers benefit from a similar organization?

No. Not if you understand how unions work.

Professional sports leagues have unions because they are necessary. There is exactly 1 league, and you’re required to sign exclusivity contracts with your team. You are owned by your team. You play for them, or you don’t play at all. You move your family to whatever shitty city bought your rights. Only rarely does a player get any say, unless they’re a superstar with a special contract. They’re also very prone to injuries that can take them out during their narrow prime earning window, and that risk needs to be hedged. As does the risk of permanent damage, including brain damage, by being required to play when it is not safe. And NBA players actually got paid very poorly before the union. Far worse than software engineers. They had no leverage.

There are many reasons for players to have unions, and none of them apply to software developers.

The Hollywood situation was similar. New actors were locked up in bad contracts. But generally, all of Hollywood is a mess of negotiations, unconventional and confusing compensation structures, scheming lawyers, and conflicts of interest all over the place. These also don’t really apply to software developers.

We don’t have agents, royalties, multi-year exclusivity, or a huge population willing to fight for scraps and slave for free in hopes of getting a big break (game development - which has much more in common with Hollywood - being an exception).

Unions are not free. The layer of bureaucracy that they introduce is a huge cost, and one that many companies cannot bear. Startups definitely can’t. Then you have to account for the widespread abuse by employees in unions. Your salary has to subsidize everybody who decides they’re going to be lazy and take a free ride by exploiting union rules. Those people are everywhere in unions. And it’s completely rational. Most people will do the minimum required for the maximum take, especially when there is no risk to doing so.

Sometimes, this cost is worth it. But, if we ranked industries in need of a union, I can’t really think of anything that would have less need for a union than software development.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#45

Have you considered what your career will be like at age 48? 55? 62? It's true that software developers are well compensated and in high demand, that demand tapers off rapidly after 40, when ageism comes up. If you want to go into management, then it's climb the corporate ladder, and get promoted until you can't do your job. What if you want to stay an IC? Become the lone developer who can support a legacy react appl…

I won’t comment on anything but the ageism. Most of the developers I work with are in there late 20s and early 30s. We’ve hired people in their 40s, 50s and 60s to join our team. According to those I’ve spoken with there really isn’t a challenge to find work - regardless of age. The caveat being everyone I spoke with was current on the latest languages, research, etc. If you stay current with the times you can find a…

Curious how are the 40,50,60 year old programmers working out for your team?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#46

As much as I don't like the idea of unionizing tech workers in general, game development does seem like it's suffering from the kind of industry-wide coordination failure unions are built to address. Every source I've ever seen is unhappy with months-long crunch time - are there any serious arguments that it's a good development model?

If that kind of development model was that much of a liability, you'd think at least one studio or company would have figured that out and would now be killing it as a result. I suspect it's just one of many factors, and probably not that important by itself.

The bottom line is that the supply of game developers has historically outpaced the demand. There are simply a lot of people who really want to make games, and are willing to put up with those work conditions.

I mean (for developers at least), it's not as though most of them couldn't find work doing some other kind of SW dev that doesn't typically involve death marches. Game dev programming skills have plenty of applicability in other kinds of software. I know this from first hand experience. So there are definitely a lot of people who are doing this voluntarily, and not because they have few or no other options.

Given that, it's hard to see a way of solving these problems via unions that doesn't effectively increase the barrier to entry for game developers. I guess that's one way to deal with it..

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#47
post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

If all engineers were making salaries like that, nobody would be ogling over them.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#48
post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector".

All the video game industry has to do is to give its workers better treatment than they would get under union stewardship. Problem solved.

But I expect video games will follow the path of many other industries, and keep beating their mules until the mules revolt.

It's a lesson that has played out publicly hundreds of times over the last few centuries, but new overlords always think they're better, smarter, luckier than those who came before them. They never are.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#49
There are plenty of examples where unions can be a constructive force in securing good working conditions while promoting good business practices. Given the poor reputation of video game development work this could be a really positive development. That being said, the last time I had a unionized job I was pretty disappointed with the results. They consistently failed to secure cost of living adjustments, and the one time I got a pay bump was to ensure that I would be ineligible for an increase in the federal overtime threshold.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#50
post #37

A union only works if everyone joins it, and that's not even close to happening in tech.

It works with group by group elections. So for example if 50% of Activision software engineers in Irvine vote to unionize, then Activision will have to bargin with the union for contracts for all the software engineers they have in Irvine.

That's quite a low bar to start. All it take is one site with abusive management and they may make enough of their employees willing to get the ball rolling. If the union improves their conditions, other people may start to see it as a more viable option and it can spread.

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