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Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

latimes.com

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Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#101

Post by criddell »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #44
criddell wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't rule it out. Professional athletes have great unions. Hollywood screenwriters, actors, and directors have great unions (or guilds). Couldn't software engineers benefit from a similar organization?

No. Not if you understand how unions work. Professional sports leagues have unions because they are necessary. There is exactly 1 league, and you’re required to sign exclusivity contracts with your team. You are owned by your team. You play for them, or you don’t play at all. You move your family to whatever shitty city bought your rights. Only rarely does a player get any say, unless they’re a superstar with a speci…

> There are many reasons for players to have unions, and none of them apply to software developers.

There are analogs to some of the things you listed.

For example, exclusivity contracts sounds a lot like non-compete agreements.

You play for them, or you don't play at all sound like employment agreements where the employer demands rights to everything you create during your time of employment.

You move your family to whatever shitty city bought your rights sounds a lot like being transferred to some place you don't want to go.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#102

Post by mlillie »

quest88 wrote: post #68
me_me_me wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human You agree that this things are happening and its not OK. why do you follow that up with: > but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Clearly if people are being taken advantage of its an issue. And its issue for large enough percentage of workforce for us to talk about it. Also this is global problem and…

I think op is saying that the video game developers are choosing to subject themselves to it and therefore they don't need protections. Even though conditions are said to be bad studios somehow seem to have an endless supply of developers.

They do subject themselves to it. However, what that analysis lack is an understanding that the worker/employer power relationship is completely asymmetrical. Workers have everything to lose, Employers have nothing to lose. That leads to 'illogical' decisions such as workers who could find work elsewhere opting not to: Shit, their rent, their medicine, their family is on the line here. Maybe the new job will be worse, or have worse benefits, or not let you skip out early on Friday to go to soccer practice?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#103

Post by Bootwizard »

usefulcat wrote: post #46
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #2

As much as I don't like the idea of unionizing tech workers in general, game development does seem like it's suffering from the kind of industry-wide coordination failure unions are built to address. Every source I've ever seen is unhappy with months-long crunch time - are there any serious arguments that it's a good development model?

If that kind of development model was that much of a liability, you'd think at least one studio or company would have figured that out and would now be killing it as a result. I suspect it's just one of many factors, and probably not that important by itself. The bottom line is that the supply of game developers has historically outpaced the demand. There are simply a lot of people who really want to make games, and…

CD Projekt Red has figured it out, but their company is funded by the Polish government...so I'd say they're in a unique position to be able to take their time.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#104

Post by [deleted] »

hpoe wrote: post #97
Tiktaalik wrote: post #54

I would strongly consider supporting a video game union, if only to help formalize the things that the good shops do and bring those practices industry wide. Personally I haven't done a day of overtime in seven years and I feel reasonably compensated but there are clearly other places out there that are still exploiting their workers. Improving worker input into production schedules and creating clear guidelines arou…

> creating more opportunities for young new grads to break in Just going to point out, everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder for new people to come in, not easier, by increasing the commitment an employer is expected to make to an employee, and by making it harder to remove employees that need to be removed but can't because of their seniority with the union.

[deleted]

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#105

Post by ryandrake »

Looks like, within minutes, most of the anti-union FUD has already been covered here:

Tech workers make a lot of money so they don’t need unions.

Tech workers have lots of options and can get a new job so they don’t need unions.

Computer work isn’t physically demanding therefore unions aren’t useful.

Nobody in tech wants to be told by their union what they should work on.

Unions only give older people seniority and pay increases.

Lots of places don’t have crunch time, therefore no tech companies need unions.

In some unions, all employees are locked into that union and have to join, therefore unions won’t work in tech companies.

You might get a bad union rep or the union might fail to get a great outcome for its members, so it doesn’t make sense to try.

I don’t think I saw “I am a master negotiator and can negotiate better comp for myself than a union could” yet, but give it time...

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#106

Post by growlist »

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

> Just yesterday we were all ogling over the salaries offered to engineers by the various top dogs in the valley. Anyone who works in tech on one of these salaries, and then turns around to complain about their collective rights... It all just feels incredibly childish to me.

Also, the concern over all the requisite 'woke' issues incongruously combined with hoarding enough filthy lucre to have FU money by 35 is amusing - a person like this might be described as a 'Champagne socialist' in the UK.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#107

Post by duxup »

claudeganon wrote: post #87
duxup wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern is most of the tech union type initiatives in the US are from ... existing US unions. These orgnizations are NOT the places to start.

I would say it’s better to use and adapt an existing framework than try to build your own from scratch.

I think the existing framework is largely broken for skilled workers in the US.

These unions have not evolved in decades, they're not going to. Many of these unions actively protect long time workers who are just running out the clock, refuse to advance their skills, and put up barriers to deal with them... to the detriment of new union members, and they do it by design.

Keep in mind once you pick a union ... that's it, there's no need for that union to change, there is no competition.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#108

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

blackearl wrote: post #78
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for filling me in. My question wasn’t rhetorical, and if Carmack is right that some games literally couldn’t be made without crunch time, that does seem like a good argument that it’s not a failure even if some people find it intolerable.

Crunch might make sense for something that doesn't have arbitrary deadlines, like a daily newspaper. How often do games have releases delayed? Crunch is only as necessary as the employer makes it.

His argument seems to be that much of what people call “crunch” is actually a labor of love, and that a norm discouraging overtime would discourage the level of personal investment that’s necessary to make great games.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#109

Post by j45 »

If unions seek to serve industries of the future, are they prepared to demonstrate how they have radically overhauled themselves compared to how they have operated from the last 100 years?

Disruption is leaving no industry or group operating according to the economies of the past safe.

It would be interesting to see what a new union, designed from the ground up would look and operate like for the knowledge worker age, instead of an industrial worker age.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#110

Post by meheleventyone »

quest88 wrote: post #77
aabeshou wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The bottom line is that the supply of game developers has historically outpaced the demand. There are simply a lot of people who really want to make games, and are willing to put up with those work conditions. If game developers don't feel exploited by their conditions, then they probably won't join/create the union. If they do feel exploited, then the union will be a good thing. > Given that, it's hard to see a wa…

IMO this just feels wrong. If you're knowingly going into an industry with a bad rap where developers say they feel exploited then don't go into it. The studio has already given them a job, going into it and then complaining and demanding change seems a bit selfish, no? I could understand if things were at one point great, and then some series of events lead to a worse situation with no options leaving. But I can't u…

It's not wrong because all jobs are by mutual agreement. You aren't in it by the grace of the owner. You have come to an agreement with them to trade labour for pay. Therefore if you do know the working conditions in general there is nothing wrong with trying to renegotiate using your leverage to get better conditions. This is most obvious in trying to negotiate promotions and pay rises in peoples day to day lives. The biggest issue for most workers is that the company that employs you has a lot more leverage than you do as an individual.

Collective bargaining at its most basic is a means by which employees can band together to increase their leverage and negotiate better deals for themselves.

Employees agitating for change is the basic building block for improving conditions.

Take the bad option knowing the downsides and work to make it less bad.

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