Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia • Hacker News Board

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#121

Post by perilunar » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 1:14 PM UTC

nomercy400 wrote: post #54

desdiv wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia produced 19.6 tonnes of coal _per person_ in 2018. That's the highest in the world. I don't think it's in any position to be pointing fingers. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_coal_prod... 481.3 million tonnes of coal / 24.6 million people

It's a bit strange to use the population density of Australia to make a point, as the population density of Australia is one of the lowest in the world (3). You're basically saying we should tackle Australia's 481 before China's 3523 or India's 716 or US' 702. Maybe we should tackle China first, as it is producing 45% of the world's coal, compared to 6% of Australia. Now if you were to say that Australia is the 5th b…

> Maybe we should tackle China first, as it is producing 45% of the world's coal, compared to 6% of Australia.

Who is 'we', and how do you suggest 'we' tackle China first?

Each country has to take care of its own emissions — we can’t wait for China to act first.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#122

Post by foxhop » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 1:20 PM UTC

I'm curious how all the permaculture farms and homesteads are faring. Are these alternative landscapes surviving or maybe thriving dispite the droughts and fires?

Could the country promote or even mandate permaculture style landworks?

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#123

Post by apexalpha » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 1:21 PM UTC

eeh wrote: post #67

mceoin wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also important to recognize that Australia's carbon contribution is not solely limited to domestic output but also our coal industry. Australia is the largest exporter of coal in the world and this is not properly accounted for in our emissions accounting. On a per-person basis, our output is among the highest in the world and the inaction of others does not absolve us from having a moral responsibility to clean up o…

Counting exports would lead to double counting: once for the exporter, once for the user. All that matters is countries having fair targets, and meeting those targets. Countries are free to meet their emissions reductions targets how they like, including buying cheap coal from Australia, planes from US, and cars from Germany.

It would double count emissions but it does mean that Australia could do more than just eliminate their own emissions, they could limit other countries' as well by stopping export.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#124

Post by Cogito » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 1:24 PM UTC

shimms wrote: post #51

aaron695 wrote: post #23

> The Australian Defense Force is sending ships to the Victoria town of Mallacoota on a two-week supply mission Sums up the lies from Time etc pretty well Using logic from primary school, exactly how could this happen? Two-week supply mission? Richest nation on earth, aka Australia. How does a fire destroy the ability for trucks to get through a road? Falling trees is the best fantasy I can think of. Which as long an…

The town of Mallacoota is essentially surrounded by a moat of fire at the moment. The residents are trapped inside this ring, one part of which is the ocean. The Navy, as well as supplying, are evacuating people off the beach as there is no other safe way out of that part of the country at the moment.

I'll add here because parent is flagged, but the fires can get so hot that the radiant heat will kill you from 100m away.

The firestorms suck up all the oxygen, and can cause massive 'fire tornadoes' that have literally flipped a fire truck onto its back.

It's not a question of 'just' sending the trucks in.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#125

Post by perilunar » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 1:27 PM UTC

benjaminsuch wrote: post #57

Excuse my ignorance, can anyone explain to me what makes it so difficult to extinguish the fire? (This question is not meant to be an ass) I tried to google it, but couldn't find a proper answer. I'm just really curious.

Adding to what others have said...

* the state-based Rural Fire Services are staffed mostly by volunteers

* and have been inadequately funded for the last few years, despite warnings that this fire season would be a shocker

* we don’t have enough fire bombers

* leadership by state and federal politicians has been a complete joke

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#126

Post by mrfusion » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 1:31 PM UTC

pan69 wrote: post #44

throwaway3CC9 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing. A fire is not evidence of climate change any more than an absence of fire is evidence against.

Australia has been in a drought for the past decade which is caused by the changing climate. Yes, if you isolate this fire season then the fires themselves will look as no evidence of climate change. But the fact the everything is as dry as fuck when its not supposed to be dry as fuck... In northern Queensland we have rain forests. The fringes of those rain forests are burning, because they're dry as fuck. https://ww…

I’m still confused. Nothing else can explain a period of dryness? I feel like it’s convenient to blame global warming without considering other ideas.

Please note, I say this as a huge climate change activist. But this feels similar to blaming hurricanes on climate change to me.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#127

Post by SturgeonsLaw » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 1:32 PM UTC

benjaminsuch wrote: post #74

kmlx wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you've got to understand australia is huge, as big as the united states. so when you've got fires as big as european nations, it's impossible to extinguish, even contain.

Okay I get that, but how do they battle it? What is the plan? Where do they start? Are they just trying to prevent the spread and wait till the fire kills itself?

I can help answer this, one of my parents is a volunteer firefighter who was helping within the last few days. The current mandate for the CFA is asset protection, ie; protecting houses, farms and other properties where they can. It's understood that the fires can't be put out in the current conditions, so resources are focused on protecting buildings for now.

We're hoping for rain, but that's probably not going to appear in any significant quantities for a couple of months.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#128

Post by spodek » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 1:38 PM UTC

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #5

As a long term Australian, this is categorically the worst fire season Australia has experienced. Summer in Australia always comes with one or two big fires in at-risk rural areas over the months from December to February. Queensland and New South Wales were burning heavily by early December. And now Victoria and South Australia have joined in as well and we're still only just into the second month of three. It's unp…

> the costs of de-carbonising the economy

Global warming is important, but only one environmental problem, so important to consider here, but not the only environmental issue.

Contributing to every environmental issue, including this one, is overpopulation. Humans have altered every continent, reducing biodiversity, introducing species that don't handle local climates as well, or too well and displace existing ones, making extinct species, and so on. I'm no expert, but the situation in Australia looks related to huge cities and lots of farms supporting a much larger human population than had ever lived there reducing biodiversity and resilience to fire, exacerbated by global warming.

People fear discussing overpopulation because they only know of China's policy and eugenics, as did I until I learned of the successful, non-coercive policies of Thailand, Iran, Mexico, etc that increased peace, prosperity, and stability.

I first learned of successful noncoercive birthrate reducing policies through Alan Weisman's excellent Countdown https://www.amazon.com/Countdown-Last-Best-Future-Earth/dp/0..., and of the critical importance of population through Limits to Growth https://www.amazon.com/Limits-Growth-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/19....

Those examples show that we can peacefully and stably lower birth rate to increase peace and prosperity and ease all other environmental problems. Steady-state following de-growth works more successfully on a full finite planet than pushing economic and population growth forever, which exacerbates problems like these and increases their impact on humans and other wildlife.

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#129

Post by nl » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 1:42 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #111

Scarblac wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing the costs of decarbonising vs rebuilding isn't quite the right comparison though (though it'll be psychologically important). It's not as if climate change would be reverted or even stop if we stopped burning fossil fuel now. There is a lag on the effect, and the situation would still be getting worse for a century or so. The comparison is between all the extra future damage of burning even more than we alr…

If we could magically put a negative in front of Australia's CO2 emissions it would change nothing [0]. Even if we stopped selling coal and absorbed that amount of CO2 instead - and assume that nobody else mines coal to meet the market's demand - we would still easily see 90% of the worlds emissions at play. Australia is a moderate player in global terms, but decarbonising is literally a symbolic gesture with real ne…

Australia is the worlds largest coal exporter.

But we could be supplying SE Asia with clean energy instead: https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/australia-po...

We produce over 1% of the world CO2 emissions, one of the highest in the world, and we worked hard to wreck the Paris agreement.

And you think all we can possibly do is to try to prevent bushfires?

Maybe we could do that and try to become world leaders in clean technology?

Re: Wildfires Are Raging Outside Every Major City in Australia

#130

Post by nl » Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 1:51 PM UTC

cygx wrote: post #119

daemin wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They [Germany] got rid of their environmentally friendly nuclear reactors in favour of burning more coal after Fukishima. They're doing a bit of solar but are burning ever more and more coal.

[Germans] are burning ever more and more coal We've missed our reduction goals, but reducton did happen (about 20% over the last 15 years, and the decrease has even been monotonic since 2013). I keep having to correct this on hackernews specifically. I have to wonder, is there some sort of concerted effort to lie about this?

is there some sort of concerted effort to lie about this?

Yeah, there is a strong pro-nuclear group on HN who believe it has unfairly been targeted.