Live data from Hacker News

Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

bbc.co.uk

221–230 of 262 posts

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#221
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that the social dynamics of being stuck with 20 to 30 same-age same-rank peers for many months is highly unusual. This. Whenever people ask about "socialization" WRT home-schooling, I always tell people that you never any social situation like you do in school -- where: 1) Everyone is exactly the same age 2) Nobody chose to be there 3) People have little chance to change their situation 4) There are very fe…

> At your work, if someone is being a bully, then either management will fire them, or you can look for another job. ... or you figure out how to deal with conflict like an adult. If your way of handling conflict is firing people or taking your ball and going home, your long-term outlook is not so good. Working with people in a system is a skill that you figure out by being exposed to other people and dealing with th…

> ... or you figure out how to deal with conflict like an adult. If your way of handling conflict is firing people or taking your ball and going home, your long-term outlook is not so good.

Its the nuclear option, and it is commonly executed. Ex: Internet forums, Dungeon Mastering, various social events, etc. etc.

* The group-leader of most social groups can effectively say "We're not hanging out with you anymore" by refusing invitations.

* Bosses at jobs can fire people.

* Dungeon Masters can outright refuse play against problematic players.

* Moderators of forums (ex: even YCombinator) can silence any party and ban them.

Etc. etc. etc. The "real world" dynamics have the implicit threat of excommunication from any group. The threat of excommunication is the fundamental political weapon of most social groups.

Is this tool used often? No, of course not. But the tool is available in every realistic social setting for a reason. We humans are social animals, and humans who refuse to play ball socially deserve to be ostracized from the group.

Not all groups are worthwhile, and many groups are toxic. So the alternative here is also keeping the ability to change groups (move sideways within a company, or find new dungeon masters or basketball friends, or whatever).

The first tool exists in schools (the "boss", the school principle and teachers, have the ability to suspend or expel students). The second tool: the ability to move schools, doesn't really exist for most people.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#222
Here's my anecdotal view on Japanese school. I have attended one from 1st to 2/3 into 7th grade (or 1st year of middle school) before I moved out to the States.

School in Japan (and to extent the society) really focus any students not standing out in a group. I was always considered by teachers, and peers, that was "different" from others. (Basically I Was kind of guy who would be left out when asked to "make a pair" in odd numbers.)

Fortunately, I could survive, as I wasn't really bullied much (happened time to time) and had small group of good friends, some support from someone older at school, and also befriended with some of teachers. Despite of this, feeling that I'm the one who can't blend in, that sense of shame and frustration was always reinforced. Without support, I would have had taken alternative way of school to be honest. (and to this day, it just gives me chill how bad things could have been if I actually had to stay in school in Japan for the rest of my education and beyond...)

School system in the US is not that greatest thing either, however, at least people left me alone for how I am. I attended to Japanese supplemental school on Saturdays (that I was nearly forced to attend) for a little more than two years and I didn't enjoy it for the same reasons I had problem with school in Japan.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't exist "the same" everywhere, Japanese society is still extremely conservative and hierarchical, to a point that increasingly more people opt for just not taking part at all anymore because they see no more point in grinding their lifes away trough overbearing work ethics and overblown societal expectations. Case in point: Japan has "family rental services" [0] for those people that spend too much time work…

That all seems relevant to the original question, but it doesn't seem to have much (if anything) to do with racism.

Racism is present in Japan, the comment that spawned this subthread appeared to be dismissing it as something that had absolutely no explanatory power in this phenomenon and further seemed surprised by Japanese racism as a concept.

Here’s the Wikipedia article.[0] Japanese (the nation) citizens of non-Japanese (the ethnic group)[1] suffer discrimination, particularly the indigenous peoples (the Ainu just got formal recognition a decade ago) and people of backgrounds Japan (the nation) has had historical enmity with (Chinese, Korean).

Whether or not we can parse specifically what portion of kids not wanting to go to school is due to this, the fact that 30% of non-Japanese ethnicity respondents of a poll conducted by the Justice Ministry said they had experienced hate speech and 40% said they had faced housing discrimination[2] seems like it would absolutely have an impact on the school experiences of those children.

This is all limited to the types of racism that are pervasive in Japanese society that a broad portion of the student population may have experienced, but Japan’s particularly strong anti-black sentiment is also notable when discussing racism in Japan more broadly.

As to why this might be a particularly strong factor in Japan, as opposed to being some sort of “cosmic background racism” present everywhere, Japanese people’s self-conception of Japan is very tied up in ethnic identity in a somewhat unique way (maybe the prevailing sentiment of Jewish people living in Israel is somewhat similar).[3] Government officials used to talk openly about one culture, one race—when Japan has never really been that and is becoming less so with time. 10% of Tokyo is foreign born, to say nothing of those who were born in Japan of non-Japanese ancestry.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_people [2] https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/06/03/commentary/j... [3] https://archive.ph/20070519010856/http://search.japantimes.c...

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#224
At one point or another, the human race is collectively going to have to admit that schooling has reached absurdity. Unless you were a monarch or a very wealthy aristocrat, the amount of schooling that children across the world receive today is entirely unprecedented. Using US children as an example, look back 100 years ago from now. Only about 60% of US children were enrolled in school, the number of days in a median school year was about 120 (as opposed to 180), and the median 25 year old only completed 8.2 years of schooling (https://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93442.pdf).

With that in mind, take a look at this list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index

In the US, the number of years spent in school on average is now 13.2. In 100 years, the number of school days has increased by (13.2 * 180) - (8.2 * 120) = 1392 days.

Now consider the life of a modern US child. It is already decided before they're born that they will spend 9 hours a day (8 at school, 1 for HW), 5 days a week, for ~13 years of their youth in an office environment. In this office environment, children are expected to be quiet and stationary for the wide majority of that time. If a child disobeys, it will be recorded on several surveillance cameras, and the event will basically be remembered forever. Despite being able to surveil every pupil, bullying is still somehow a commonplace event. For the bullied, they have no recourse because they are forced to interact with their bullies on a near-daily basis. How anyone can convince themselves that this is a natural environment for children is beyond me.

To be completely clear, I'm not saying I have an easy solution for this. This is simply the reality of competing in a highly technological, global economy. The need for menial labor is dropping everyday, and the demands of specialization are becoming increasingly stringent. But like a man eating tree bark in a famine, the necessity of the action doesn't magically improve the circumstances. Whether anybody likes it or not, it is a hard fact that governments around the world are forcing children to grow up in environments where they can not move, can not talk, can not play, and must complete copious amounts of paperwork.

Schooling has become the elephant in the room for several modern dilemmas. On this site in particular, there have been numerous articles circulating about the depression epidemic, the loneliness epidemic, record-breaking virginity, record-breaking obesity, etc. etc. While unlikely to be sole cause for any of those issues, it is a blindingly obvious contributor. If I force a child to stay at a desk every morning until night for several years, it should come as no surprise when the child's health and mental state starts to fail. Yet if I do that in the name of education, this is a surprising result?

This is an untouchable subject for politicians, except when arguing to _increase_ its size and scope. It is too easy for political opponents to smear such candidates as "anti-education", and a large group of teachers / school administrators consider such proposals to be an attack on their job security. Unlike other job sectors, these teachers / school administrators have a regular captive audience of children for 8 straight hours. Even unintentionally, their political attitudes are bound to be reflected in their students. So, the attitudes continue, and the cycle stays unbroken.

To hazard a guess, I don't think the end of this cycle is going to be an intentional political action. I think it is much more likely to be a collapse, based on the carelessness that this issue has been given up to now. Eventually, the constraints placed on children are going to become unbearable, and the rewards at the end of the pipeline will become too meager. If this happens, there will a large number of people in a single generation going insane en masse. Unfortunately, that would probably collapse more than just the school system.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're referred to as Zainichi. After WW2, there was over 1 million Koreans living in Japan. Some went back, some decided to wait due to the war starting. Then the country they were going back to no longer existed, so they stayed. Many don't even have citizenship. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/news/japanborn-koreans-li...

Many became yakuza because it's one of the few groups they could join. Hisayuki Machii (Jeong Geon-Yeong) was a legendary Korean yakuza leader

Yup I've heard the same, Yakuza leadership (also rank and file) has a lot of Zainichi.

I also remember hearing about how Pachinko parlours are usually owned by Yakuza/Zainichi and they funnel profits into North Korea.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#226
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a parent and I think school is a dumb decision and a huge opportunity cost. So I spend a lot of time and money to find a school environment that gives them more than I can alone. If at some point I can no longer afford it, I would homeschool.

I would love to do this for my kids, but it's just not possible due to location and cost. I'm in the UK and there are a couple of free school like establishments and that's it. And they are really expensive. For kids like me school was an utter waste of time, with such a strong drive to learn, and an independent streak a mile wide... Let's just say it was a deeply unpleasant experience. Perhaps even traumatising. My…

The idea is to keep you trapped. Move.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#227
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism? It's Japan . Whatever racism there could be, it's an extremely small, microscopic particle among the whole of the school system. Even if the incidents are egregious, this is not even among the top twenty reasons that "many" refuse to attend. As far back as the 1980's it was widely reported that Japanese expectations for children's performance and good behavior drive them to mental illness, from the top down,…

I mention racism as only one item on the list. 1 out of 30 children born in Japan today are of mixed ancestry, so it is not as microscopic as you may think. I just have anecdotal evidence. The two kids I know here who regularly skipped school did so because of racist bullying. And yes, hearing "that's your fault because you are a minority" is indicative of a mentality that does not want to fix the problems of people…

[deleted]

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That all seems relevant to the original question, but it doesn't seem to have much (if anything) to do with racism.

Racism is present in Japan, the comment that spawned this subthread appeared to be dismissing it as something that had absolutely no explanatory power in this phenomenon and further seemed surprised by Japanese racism as a concept. Here’s the Wikipedia article.[0] Japanese (the nation) citizens of non-Japanese (the ethnic group)[1] suffer discrimination, particularly the indigenous peoples (the Ainu just got formal r…

so the non-japanese are angry they are not japanese in Japan - a country for japanese? can't they just be japanese?

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#229
post #113

"As the numbers keep rising, people are asking if it's a reflection of the school system, rather than a problem with the pupils themselves." Got some first hand experience here. Hard to not be a bit sarcastic. Geeze, I don't know... Is it that the students of Japan are suddenly becoming stubborn (or "weak") or is it that a system that: - does not fight bullying - does not fight racism - does not allow students any fr…

Racism? It's Japan . Whatever racism there could be, it's an extremely small, microscopic particle among the whole of the school system. Even if the incidents are egregious, this is not even among the top twenty reasons that "many" refuse to attend. As far back as the 1980's it was widely reported that Japanese expectations for children's performance and good behavior drive them to mental illness, from the top down,…

>Racism? It's Japan.

Perhaps racism isn't the right descriptor.

Japan has a caste system that puts India's to shame. It's smaller in the number of people living in the lower tiers, but the effects are amplified to a high degree.

At least India puts some effort, futile or not, into forcing representation for its untouchables.

In Japan, a member of the untouchable caste is actual, literal, human garbage especially in the western parts of the country.

It is illegal for parents to investigate the background of their children's potential marriage partners in order to determine if they are a member of an untouchable caste.

Investigations still occur regularly.

Anyone who claims that it is not still a problem is either lying, or is a Japan-obsessed foreigner whose impressions of the country are based on a weeklong trip to Tokyo.

I'm willing to bet that many of the children refusing to go to school are those with the "wrong" family name.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people graduate highschool with severely damaged ideas of what it means to "learn" (cramming for tests, teasing out hints from the exact wording of multiple choice questions, highlighting keyword-y sentences in textbooks based on the expectation that test makers will be lazy.) So school may not even be teaching that.

Being good at quickly figuring out the intended correct answer of multiple choice questions has two actual uses in adult life: personality & behavioral screening tests for jobs in the lower tier of the economic pyramid, and corporate/government mandated "training".

Of course, school is literally training people to hold these types of low level roles.
Post reply on HN