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Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#161

Post by gwd »

aga98mtl wrote: post #108
iforgotpassword wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge. Ironically this is somehow the most valuable lessons learned during school, since you ultimately have to deal with this shit throughout your life in most career paths. So at least you got prepared for that.

I think that the social dynamics of being stuck with 20 to 30 same-age same-rank peers for many months is highly unusual. Only prison is like this. In normal life, groups (Work, Family, social gatherings) are of mixed age, mixed experience, mixed rank. To become a better person, I had to forget the pettiness of High School social dynamics.

> I think that the social dynamics of being stuck with 20 to 30 same-age same-rank peers for many months is highly unusual.

This. Whenever people ask about "socialization" WRT home-schooling, I always tell people that you never any social situation like you do in school -- where:

1) Everyone is exactly the same age 2) Nobody chose to be there 3) People have little chance to change their situation 4) There are very few consequences for poor behavior.

At your work, if someone is being a bully, then either management will fire them, or you can look for another job. At school, you have to almost murder somebody to actually be expelled, and most kids have very limited ability to change schools or classes if they're unhappy.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#162

Post by derefr »

ihuman wrote: post #156
derefr wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the thing journalists find interesting is that Japan is creating these particular words at all, when most languages/cultures don’t bother. (Edited: removed some badly-sourced assertions.) We have an English word “truant”, referring to someone who happens to not attend schooling; but we have no English word for someone who actively avoids the education system. This is an uncommon construction; I don’t think th…

> We have an English word “truant”, referring to someone who happens to not attend schooling; but we have no English word for someone who actively avoids the education system There's also "playing hooky". While it still refers to the action, IMO its more about someone actively avoiding school/work.

“Playing hooky” is more about a particular “episode” of non-attendance, though. A regular person, who otherwise enjoys attending school, can “play hooky” because e.g. they want to stay home to play a newly-released video game. Futoko is—from my understanding—meant more as a sort of constitutional property. It’s something these children are, rather than something they’re doing.

It’s like the difference between “being depressed” and “suffering from depression.” One is a mood, that could be brought about by any number of temporary environmental factors, and really isn’t a “problem” so much as an often-expected reaction that will sort itself out. The other is a long-term state of being with complex etiology that isn’t expected to resolve without diagnosis and treatment.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#163

Post by MadWombat »

thrower123 wrote: post #131
Iv wrote: post #113

"As the numbers keep rising, people are asking if it's a reflection of the school system, rather than a problem with the pupils themselves." Got some first hand experience here. Hard to not be a bit sarcastic. Geeze, I don't know... Is it that the students of Japan are suddenly becoming stubborn (or "weak") or is it that a system that: - does not fight bullying - does not fight racism - does not allow students any fr…

What racism is there to fight in Japan? Are you sure you aren't just pulling stock arguments out here?

"The Ainu have historically suffered from economic and social discrimination throughout Japan that continues to this day. The Japanese Government as well as people since contact with the Ainu, have in large part regarded them as a dirty, backwards and a primitive people."

Reminds you of anything or anyone?

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#164

Post by malvosenior »

danfang wrote: post #127
oddity wrote: post #5

If you're a kid and do the cost/benefit analysis, going to school looks like a dumb decision and a huge opportunity cost for time that could otherwise be used for things with known reward (playing). Bullying, exams, homework, sleep disruption, etc is all cost. What does the student believe they get they out of it? The pathway from school to job is nebulous to young kids who don't yet need money to live. As kids get o…

The community here on HN seems to have a very negative opinion of school. PG seems to talk about it quite frequently. Here's a different viewpoint. I personally really enjoyed school. I enjoyed the social structure of school. I wasn't popular by any means, but I had my group of nerdy, academic friends who shared a passion for learning and building things. Learning how to deal with social conflicts, when they inevitab…

> Maybe my experience was "lucky" compared to most others here?

I can't speak for anyone else, but this is definitely the polar opposite of the experience I had.

School was a huge opportunity cost for me. When I think about the skills that make me successful today, 90% of them were self taught or I picked them up in the industry (programming, sales, marketing, management). I was always a prolific reader and learned so much more in my independent studies during my school years than through the education system.

Socially, it was even more dire. I was fairly popular, but I've since had to cut off contact with everyone I went to school with. A lot of them are toxic but most are just very different from me in a way that doesn't make sense for them to be part of my life.

People I've met through shared interests are the ones that become a part of my life in a significant way.

For me, school was a prison like environment that I'd wish on no one. I'm really happy to see students standing and questioning the fundamental necessity of our antiquated school system. 12 years is a lot of time to waste and I'm excited to see a shift toward actually taking advantage of that time instead of just "keeping kids off the streets" and "training cogs".

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#165

Post by sytelus »

oddity wrote: post #5

If you're a kid and do the cost/benefit analysis, going to school looks like a dumb decision and a huge opportunity cost for time that could otherwise be used for things with known reward (playing). Bullying, exams, homework, sleep disruption, etc is all cost. What does the student believe they get they out of it? The pathway from school to job is nebulous to young kids who don't yet need money to live. As kids get o…

I would not recommend home schooling unless you are trained, certified and experienced as teacher. For one thing, kids will miss out on social interactions that I feel are the 50% of the learning experience. When you have 20 kids class you start to develop notions of how different people are, how they think, behave and share. Learning to deal with all these is major part of the school system.

Other important thing is how to teach. On surface it might feel trivial to teach division to 7 years old but in reality different kids understand in different ways. An experienced teacher has came in contact with all idiosyncrasies and knows different approaches to make student successful. Person doing something professionally all day long is often way ahead of the game than parents who are busy doing chores or make a leaving.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#166

Post by aidenn0 »

sdrothrock wrote: post #35
oddity wrote: post #5

If you're a kid and do the cost/benefit analysis, going to school looks like a dumb decision and a huge opportunity cost for time that could otherwise be used for things with known reward (playing). Bullying, exams, homework, sleep disruption, etc is all cost. What does the student believe they get they out of it? The pathway from school to job is nebulous to young kids who don't yet need money to live. As kids get o…

> If you're a kid and do the cost/benefit analysis, going to school looks like a dumb decision and a huge opportunity cost for time that could otherwise be used for things with known reward (playing). Bullying, exams, homework, sleep disruption, etc is all cost. The benefit of going to school for kids in the US at least is that you get to move a year closer to getting out. A cost is that if you don't go, you get held…

> The benefit of going to school for kids in the US at least is that you get to move a year closer to getting out.

> A cost is that if you don't go, you get held back (and get the according social stigma).

At least in California, this is no longer true. My daughter has been a year behind for 6 years straight now, and we've done everything short of suing the school to try and get them to hold her back a year, but they refuse to.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#167

Post by mlvljr »

elhudy wrote: post #133
thrower123 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What racism is there to fight in Japan? Are you sure you aren't just pulling stock arguments out here?

Anecdotally, I visited a friend in Hokkaido for a couple weeks and during my time there (as a white non-Japanese speaking person) I was kicked out of two restaurants upon entry for not being Japanese. Racism exists everywhere.

kicked out -- was that Karate kicks? :)

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#168

Post by watwut »

danfang wrote: post #127
oddity wrote: post #5

If you're a kid and do the cost/benefit analysis, going to school looks like a dumb decision and a huge opportunity cost for time that could otherwise be used for things with known reward (playing). Bullying, exams, homework, sleep disruption, etc is all cost. What does the student believe they get they out of it? The pathway from school to job is nebulous to young kids who don't yet need money to live. As kids get o…

The community here on HN seems to have a very negative opinion of school. PG seems to talk about it quite frequently. Here's a different viewpoint. I personally really enjoyed school. I enjoyed the social structure of school. I wasn't popular by any means, but I had my group of nerdy, academic friends who shared a passion for learning and building things. Learning how to deal with social conflicts, when they inevitab…

I think that negative articles attract people who were unhappy with schools and little bit those who push for homeschooling for ideological reasons. If you was alright with school, you have nothing to contribute to discussion.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#169

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

rorykoehler wrote: post #77
redis_mlc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reporting segment running now on I believe CNN Asia about Singaporean schools and "kiasu" culture. Reporter: "How do you balance schoolwork and play?" Singaporean Mom: "That is a good question. But my kids will thank me after they are successful in life." In other words, no balance except as an abstract thought. :)

The depressing thing is this type of kiasu parenting actually takes the child further away from success. Children learn through play. A good technician doesn't make a good inventor and let's face it the people we remember as successful are all in the inventor mould.

Many people say that yet a large number of successful doctors, lawyers, engineers, and other skilled professionals have come from that type of parenting.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#170

Post by ddingus »

danfang wrote: post #127
oddity wrote: post #5

If you're a kid and do the cost/benefit analysis, going to school looks like a dumb decision and a huge opportunity cost for time that could otherwise be used for things with known reward (playing). Bullying, exams, homework, sleep disruption, etc is all cost. What does the student believe they get they out of it? The pathway from school to job is nebulous to young kids who don't yet need money to live. As kids get o…

The community here on HN seems to have a very negative opinion of school. PG seems to talk about it quite frequently. Here's a different viewpoint. I personally really enjoyed school. I enjoyed the social structure of school. I wasn't popular by any means, but I had my group of nerdy, academic friends who shared a passion for learning and building things. Learning how to deal with social conflicts, when they inevitab…

My experience was similar, and I too enjoyed school.

Over time, I feel my experience was an outlier.

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