Many Japanese children refuse to go to school • Hacker News Board

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#211

Post by claudeganon » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:36 PM UTC

Pigo wrote: post #209

claudeganon wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Group vs. individual biases are culturally and historically determined, but the politics or ideology they manifest in modernity are not. Anarchism, socialism, and communism all had mass appeal in prewar Japan and the Japanese Communist Party (JCP) was a powerful political force in the early postwar period, being one of the few groups that rightfully opposed the fascist war that led to so much death and devastation. S…

I guess what I'm getting at is everything described in this article. The concept of ultra-conformity doesn't really resonate with the America.

Perhaps, but it’s a second-order effect of America rendering postwar Japan as a de facto, right wing one party state. Whether or not Japanese society conforms to specific American social norms is less important than whether the society produced by this order serves broader US interests. You could make the same observation about other far right or monarchical regimes the US is currently allied with (e.g. Saudi Arabia).

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#212

Post by blackearl » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:40 PM UTC

Iv wrote: post #196

blackearl wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But again, that has to be such a tiny minority that OP's list sounds made up.

I'm OP. It is a minority. And Japan is very racist towards them. Turns out there are 3 kids in that situation in my family. We already witnessed three classes having racist bullying and both teachers and school direction refusing to do anything. I do believe that this mentality of blaming the victims that do not "fit in the mold" is indicative of a very negative culture.

I just don't think Japan is going to change any time soon. They've been very nationalistic for the last 400 years, if not longer, I only have a little knowledge of their more recent past. In this scenario, blaming the victim is being realistic. If you're not Japanese, don't expect to be accepted the way native Japanese are. Even among the pure Japanese they have castes, so foreigners are even lower on the list.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#213

Post by blackearl » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:43 PM UTC

moufestaphio wrote: post #184

mfoy_ wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or if you're "Japanese" but with Korean heritage... I've heard stories of people who had Korean ancestry and they had a deep terror of anyone ever finding out.

They're referred to as Zainichi. After WW2, there was over 1 million Koreans living in Japan. Some went back, some decided to wait due to the war starting. Then the country they were going back to no longer existed, so they stayed. Many don't even have citizenship. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/news/japanborn-koreans-li...

Many became yakuza because it's one of the few groups they could join. Hisayuki Machii (Jeong Geon-Yeong) was a legendary Korean yakuza leader

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#214

Post by claudeganon » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:44 PM UTC

Iv wrote: post #199

PeterisP wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a random example of racism in Japan's shools that simply don't accept that other ethnicities exist, here's a story about students required to dye their hair black in order to match everyone else - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/27/japanese-stude... - in this particular situation the student had naturally brown hair, which most likely means a non-Japanese parent, and was bullied by the authorities beca…

The mixed Japanese-African girl I know was forced to straighten her hair because her natural hair is "extravagant".

My mother-in-law, who was fully Japanese but had naturally, slightly curly hair, was accused by her school of getting a perm, in violation of school rules, until her parents provided photographs proving it had always been curly.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#215

Post by downerending » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 6:55 PM UTC

freeflight wrote: post #201

downerending wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Racism and discrimination aren't just reserved to the color of skin, it's often built around whole ancestries of groups and their traditional social standings. Indeed, but this exists everywhere. Why would this factor be unusually influential in Japan?

It doesn't exist "the same" everywhere, Japanese society is still extremely conservative and hierarchical, to a point that increasingly more people opt for just not taking part at all anymore because they see no more point in grinding their lifes away trough overbearing work ethics and overblown societal expectations. Case in point: Japan has "family rental services" [0] for those people that spend too much time work…

That all seems relevant to the original question, but it doesn't seem to have much (if anything) to do with racism.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#216

Post by dragontamer » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:01 PM UTC

blackearl wrote: post #212

Iv wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm OP. It is a minority. And Japan is very racist towards them. Turns out there are 3 kids in that situation in my family. We already witnessed three classes having racist bullying and both teachers and school direction refusing to do anything. I do believe that this mentality of blaming the victims that do not "fit in the mold" is indicative of a very negative culture.

I just don't think Japan is going to change any time soon. They've been very nationalistic for the last 400 years, if not longer, I only have a little knowledge of their more recent past. In this scenario, blaming the victim is being realistic. If you're not Japanese, don't expect to be accepted the way native Japanese are. Even among the pure Japanese they have castes, so foreigners are even lower on the list.

If I came out and said "Blackearl: Your country sucks and you should move out of it", I don't think you'd think it was very helpful advice.

I think coming out to the internet, sharing some personal anecdotes about racism and personal issues, and maybe publishing problems you've experienced personally can help. Not only for teaching others about the issues you yourself face, but also for helping keep ones emotions in check and meditating upon your own issues.

Obviously, this discussion thread exists to criticize Japan and bring forth issues. But in order to be more helpful to everyone involved, its more beneficial to be more specific about what can, and can't, be done to fix certain issues.

With regards to your specific point: giving up because of cultural norms is defeatist and doesn't seem helpful in any case. Now I'm not Japanese, nor have I ever been to that country. But it sounds like Japan is a functioning democracy, so publishing opinions and raising issues is definitely the way to move forward in that kind of political system. The people must be aware of a problem (and agree that it is a problem) before you can ever hope for the politics to change.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#217

Post by hrktb » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:06 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #92

hrktb wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, if my hypothesis is correct, parents in Japan are more likely to go untreated You are right that people don’t often admit mental illness in public or to people they don’t trust. That’s not that different from western countries in my experience, there is a stigma associated to even depression. Perhaps agoraphobia would be the line where people just nod and ask for details, otherwise they tend to draw a line and…

Only few mental health issues can be solved just like that by prescription. Many if not most are lifetime issues with considerable consequences on everyone around.

Yes.

Luckily work environnement is usually not that chalenging, and very predictible. It helps to avoid situations that could be triggering, and medication can also mitigate the handicaping parts, even if it doesn’t solve the root issues.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#218

Post by hprotagonist » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #146

Iv wrote: post #113

"As the numbers keep rising, people are asking if it's a reflection of the school system, rather than a problem with the pupils themselves." Got some first hand experience here. Hard to not be a bit sarcastic. Geeze, I don't know... Is it that the students of Japan are suddenly becoming stubborn (or "weak") or is it that a system that: - does not fight bullying - does not fight racism - does not allow students any fr…

> does not allow students any free time for any hobby I don't know about you, but Japanese people who grew up in Japan, in my experience, are the most likely of anyone I've ever known to have active hobbies that they picked up during middle or high school. I don't know of any nationality or ethnic group I'd associate more with having active school-age hobbies. > does not fight racism That may be a problem for those w…

> are broadly ethnic Japanese, or Okinawan

You know that Okinawan is “bad”, right.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#219

Post by Iv » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:23 PM UTC

blackearl wrote: post #212

Iv wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm OP. It is a minority. And Japan is very racist towards them. Turns out there are 3 kids in that situation in my family. We already witnessed three classes having racist bullying and both teachers and school direction refusing to do anything. I do believe that this mentality of blaming the victims that do not "fit in the mold" is indicative of a very negative culture.

I just don't think Japan is going to change any time soon. They've been very nationalistic for the last 400 years, if not longer, I only have a little knowledge of their more recent past. In this scenario, blaming the victim is being realistic. If you're not Japanese, don't expect to be accepted the way native Japanese are. Even among the pure Japanese they have castes, so foreigners are even lower on the list.

Well Japan used to execute any foreigner washing up on its shores, and to consider US its mortal enemy, so there is some proof it can change. Actually Japan society can move incredibly fast, but it does so in hiccups, when its delay is becoming an unbearable embarrassment.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#220

Post by aidenn0 » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:23 PM UTC

giardini wrote: post #198

sametmax wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but should not have to learn about fire by putting your hand in it for 20 years. In a room full of pyromaniacs calling themself firefighters. As a defenseless kid. It looks like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/YiqlS Without the fun of it

" putting your hand in it[fire] for 20 years" ? Sorry, bad metaphor, too extreme. Nobody can do or imagine doing that. As for the sword cartoon you linked to: there was nothing better than getting my first Boy Scout knife. Within a few days I had blooded my blade by cutting myself, thereby learning new respect for a tool that lasted decades. My experience is that every boy cuts himself once with his pocket knife, and…

> I saw only one case of physical bullying in 24 years of school. I was never bullied, perhaps being too tall and too willing to engage people in conversation.

Yes, being a tall extravert will discourage bullying. I was 4'8" when I started 7th grade, but 5'10" when I started 9th grade, so I saw the difference rather drastically. (FWIW I was personally physically bullied well more than the one time you witnessed, and I was nowhere near the most bullied kid in school).

From your experience, associating schooling with bullying is probably foreign. From my experience, I can't imagine anyone going through school without witnessing more than one act of physical bullying, because all forms of bullying were so omnipresent. Perhaps the term "Umwelt" applies here.

As physical bullying has become less socially accepted, the harms of non-physical bullying may have surpassed the harms of physical bullying today. I know many kids who were driven to self-harm from non-physical bullying. There was a teacher who would bully certain students causing them to drop out of the advanced math track (she was the only HS teacher teaching the 10th grade requirement for the track).

> >" putting your hand in it[fire] for 20 years"?

> Sorry, bad metaphor, too extreme. Nobody can do or imagine doing that.

I think, for some kids, it's not too much of an exaggeration, which is exactly why many kids drop out of school. I have heard stories of (and personally witnessed one) bullied kids jumping out of moving vehicles to avoid going to school.

I think for most kids, public schooling is "okay" for some it's great, but for many others, calling it institutionalized torture is not much of a stretch.