Many Japanese children refuse to go to school • Hacker News Board

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#111

Post by zulgan » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 2:45 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #37

oddity wrote: post #5

If you're a kid and do the cost/benefit analysis, going to school looks like a dumb decision and a huge opportunity cost for time that could otherwise be used for things with known reward (playing). Bullying, exams, homework, sleep disruption, etc is all cost. What does the student believe they get they out of it? The pathway from school to job is nebulous to young kids who don't yet need money to live. As kids get o…

+1. Even as an adult, If I could do it all again, I would avoid school as much as possible. School is an upgrade from child labor, but I now have enough experience to know it's a downgrade from what I can learn of my own. Not saying every kid should do the same of course. But personnally, after being in 11 schools, including fancy private ones and ones in poor neighbourhoods, I found extremly few decent teachers, a v…

I think that the point of school is in no way education. The point is to mold individuals in order to fit within 2 standard deviations of the norm, and it does all it can to do so (tests, medication, etc etc).

If you are in the upper percentiles, you are used to bring the lower percentiles up, if you are in the lower you are used to bring balance.

Now we are almost at the point of making not going to school illegal. (you can argue if mandatory is the same as illegal)

-b

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#112

Post by JauntyHatAngle » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 2:50 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #72

iforgotpassword wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge. Ironically this is somehow the most valuable lessons learned during school, since you ultimately have to deal with this shit throughout your life in most career paths. So at least you got prepared for that.

Yes, but should not have to learn about fire by putting your hand in it for 20 years. In a room full of pyromaniacs calling themself firefighters. As a defenseless kid. It looks like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/YiqlS Without the fun of it

I understand what you are saying, but the level of damage you are implying is way, way higher than the vast majority of students go through.

I say this as someone who was regularly bullied through primary school.

Social dynamics are important, and you learn best through experiencing it. If it's as bad for you as you are implying, that is a massive failure on the schools part and that sucks you went through it.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#113

Post by Iv » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

"As the numbers keep rising, people are asking if it's a reflection of the school system, rather than a problem with the pupils themselves."

Got some first hand experience here. Hard to not be a bit sarcastic. Geeze, I don't know... Is it that the students of Japan are suddenly becoming stubborn (or "weak") or is it that a system that:

- does not fight bullying

- does not fight racism

- does not allow students any free time for any hobby

- does recommend to sleep less in order to study more

- does not allow to repeat a class and solely looks at date of birth to put kids in a class

could, possibly, have some impact on the well-being of kids?

But worry not: Japanese TV knows how parents can solve that! It recommends shouting and forcing sport on your lazy stay-at-home kid!

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#114

Post by claudeganon » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

jpalomaki wrote: post #104

oddity wrote: post #5

If you're a kid and do the cost/benefit analysis, going to school looks like a dumb decision and a huge opportunity cost for time that could otherwise be used for things with known reward (playing). Bullying, exams, homework, sleep disruption, etc is all cost. What does the student believe they get they out of it? The pathway from school to job is nebulous to young kids who don't yet need money to live. As kids get o…

Maybe school for kids should not be so serious business, like: ”Many schools in Japan control every aspect of their pupils' appearance, forcing pupils to dye their brown hair black, or not allowing pupils to wear tights or coats, even in cold weather. In some cases they even decide on the colour of pupils' underwear.” Why not just keep it fun? More playing, less homework.

Social order in modern Japan is ruthlessly maintained through group pressure, extreme enforcement of hierarchy, and deference to various forms of authority.

While many will try to tell you in some Orientalist fiction that this is inherent to the Japanese people, it’s actually more the byproduct of the postwar, American-designed order that rehabilitated the former fascists as a “conservative” parliamentary party and invested them with near unilateral power (including over schooling). Prior to this period and through various forms of popular resistance (up until about the 1970s), Japan was a hotbed of radicalism, producing some of the greatest artists and thinkers about the problems of modernity.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#115

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 2:56 PM UTC

jpalomaki wrote: post #104

oddity wrote: post #5

If you're a kid and do the cost/benefit analysis, going to school looks like a dumb decision and a huge opportunity cost for time that could otherwise be used for things with known reward (playing). Bullying, exams, homework, sleep disruption, etc is all cost. What does the student believe they get they out of it? The pathway from school to job is nebulous to young kids who don't yet need money to live. As kids get o…

Maybe school for kids should not be so serious business, like: ”Many schools in Japan control every aspect of their pupils' appearance, forcing pupils to dye their brown hair black, or not allowing pupils to wear tights or coats, even in cold weather. In some cases they even decide on the colour of pupils' underwear.” Why not just keep it fun? More playing, less homework.

[deleted]

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#116

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 2:57 PM UTC

Iv wrote: post #113

"As the numbers keep rising, people are asking if it's a reflection of the school system, rather than a problem with the pupils themselves." Got some first hand experience here. Hard to not be a bit sarcastic. Geeze, I don't know... Is it that the students of Japan are suddenly becoming stubborn (or "weak") or is it that a system that: - does not fight bullying - does not fight racism - does not allow students any fr…

[deleted]

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#117

Post by SkyBelow » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #38

WilliamEdward wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The evidence for transfer learning is weak to the point of non-existence. Citation needed. But transfer learning is a term specific to the ML field anyway, so I'm not sure why you used it. > teaching nationalism is a much easier sell as to the purpose of school I don't think most people believe this is the purpose of school, not even nationalists.

Nationalists most certainly believe that, for example every small change to our children’s history books that can be seen as not conforming to our glorious past (or what the nationalists see as our “glorious past”) is seen by our local nationalists (I live in a Eastern Europe) as potentially the end of the world as we know it. Europe can be interesting like that, good thing that we (almost) stopped killing each other…

>over stupid things like imaginary lines drawn on soil.

Now consider how many people are hurt every year over enforcing laws that have just as imaginary lines drawn about other issues. Things like not being able to vote because of an imaginary line. Not being able to buy alcohol. Being forced to go to school where you have no rights to protect yourself from being harmed.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#118

Post by Iv » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

chii wrote: post #14

redis_mlc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reporting segment running now on I believe CNN Asia about Singaporean schools and "kiasu" culture. Reporter: "How do you balance schoolwork and play?" Singaporean Mom: "That is a good question. But my kids will thank me after they are successful in life." In other words, no balance except as an abstract thought. :)

> after they are successful in life... where the definition of success is based on the parent's perception of what success means. The child's opinions nor desires don't come into the picture.

This is actually a common mindset in countries where a generation remembers famine-level poverty.

I once discussed with some friends from various backgrounds on the merits of doing higher education or going in for your passion after high-school and a friend from a remote countryside in Mexico explained "well, for me it was straighforward. Either I go to university, or I do farming my all life."

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#119

Post by whyBother » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 3:03 PM UTC

Iv wrote: post #113

"As the numbers keep rising, people are asking if it's a reflection of the school system, rather than a problem with the pupils themselves." Got some first hand experience here. Hard to not be a bit sarcastic. Geeze, I don't know... Is it that the students of Japan are suddenly becoming stubborn (or "weak") or is it that a system that: - does not fight bullying - does not fight racism - does not allow students any fr…

Racism? It's Japan. Whatever racism there could be, it's an extremely small, microscopic particle among the whole of the school system.

Even if the incidents are egregious, this is not even among the top twenty reasons that "many" refuse to attend.

As far back as the 1980's it was widely reported that Japanese expectations for children's performance and good behavior drive them to mental illness, from the top down, starting with the demands of parents.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#120

Post by Pigo » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #114

jpalomaki wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe school for kids should not be so serious business, like: ”Many schools in Japan control every aspect of their pupils' appearance, forcing pupils to dye their brown hair black, or not allowing pupils to wear tights or coats, even in cold weather. In some cases they even decide on the colour of pupils' underwear.” Why not just keep it fun? More playing, less homework.

Social order in modern Japan is ruthlessly maintained through group pressure, extreme enforcement of hierarchy, and deference to various forms of authority. While many will try to tell you in some Orientalist fiction that this is inherent to the Japanese people, it’s actually more the byproduct of the postwar, American-designed order that rehabilitated the former fascists as a “conservative” parliamentary party and i…

There are other Oriental countries with a similar focus on putting the group before the individual. America has had a lot of influence on a lot of places, and certainly not all for the best, but how could America have influenced a place into a behaving a way that is completely foreign to America?