Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 303 posts

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#221

Post by wutbrodo »

4bpp wrote: post #215
treden wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

What's subjective there, though? If you go to Crimea and commit a crime (heh), you will be caught by Russian police and hauled before a Russian court. If you start in a point on Crimea and walk towards Kiev or vice versa, you will be stopped by military who will check if you are allowed to enter Ukraine or Russia respectively. We conclude that there is an international border between Crimea and Ukraine, and Crimea is…

None of this is inconsistent with a disputed border though: Russia would describe it as firmly Russian and Ukraine as occupied Ukrainian territory.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#222

Post by dmix »

philwelch wrote: post #213
dmix wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that all of the prior polling by relatively politically neutral organizations (UNDP, Razumkov Centre), even dating back to 2009-2011 before the civil war, showed widespread support for at a minimum secession from Ukraine, including multiple polls showing a majority supporting joining Russia (consistently 65% to 70% in favour) yet the whole idea of Crimeans having a voice in their own statehood was re…

There was "potentially legitimate local support" from Germans living in Danzig and the Czech Sudetenland, too. The overriding principle of international law is that you shouldn't use your army to invade neighboring countries.

Indeed, it would be far more defensible if they merely seceded themselves instead of joining the bigger guy next door, with the direct intervention of their army beforehand.

I'm a big fan of smaller states and more localized governments which closer reflect the people (see: Canada, Scandinavia, Singapore, Taiwan, HK, South Korea, etc). Few people talk about the US's massive population, economic, size/scale of modern western governments growth vs the past when talking about today's political and class divides.

So my general point is that the needs/wants of the Crimeans themselves shouldn't be merely tossed aside and ignored just because Russia played a role. Especially if we're trying to prevent this from happening again. Taking the UN's elitist evil Russian boogieman approach leaves the world more vulnerable to this sort of thing, not less. Just like with ISIS/Iraq/Syria, the locals needs matter a lot more than we give them credit.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#223

Post by larnmar »

cpursley wrote: post #187
hyko wrote: post #148

Apple enjoys all the privileges of being based in a western liberal democracy, but it’s starting to feel like they don’t really believe in those values. All that guff about privacy, the environment, minority rights etc, yet when faced with real tyranny they will do literally anything in return for market access. The lesson is clear: don’t expect soft power alone to topple the autocrats of the 21st Century.

Get over yourself. The USA overthrew and annexed Hawaii a little more than 100 years ago. Not to mention Texas, Puerto Rico, etc. When we start talking about giving back those territories, I'll start taking everyone's opinion on Crimea seriously.

Giving them back to whom, exactly? Texas voted to join the US, Puerto Rico has repeatedly had independence referenda, and Hawaii is... complicated, but you certainly couldn’t argue that the unelected Hawaiian monarchy was a more legitimate government than the elected US government (also Hawaiian independence polls at around 6%).

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#224

Post by kelnos »

dangus wrote: post #13

This sort of thing happened long before technology provided mapping programs. I wonder if anyone is familiar with how these things played out in the days of published maps? I’m no historian myself. But I’m sure some map publisher had to begrudgingly admit that “their side lost” at some point. Here’s the thing, once enough time passes, you have to start to consider that Crimea may never return to Ukrainian control. Ju…

> sadly, nobody did anything significant to stop it.

Why "sadly"? By all reliable accounts, the Crimean people would rather be a part of Russia. Obviously we'd prefer that land and people be transferred between countries via diplomacy rather than military action, but I don't feel like expecting that to happen in this case is realistic.

(Obviously Russia didn't annex Crimea out of the goodness of its heart, of course. I imagine it was primarily for some form of strategic advantage, and Crimea being largely populated by ethnic Russians just made it both easier to accomplish and justify.)

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#225

Post by wutbrodo »

varjag wrote: post #123
pishpash wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Confederacy also became independent for a few years, before being reabsorbed under the gun. How long do you keep depicting a fiction?

The Confederacy wasn't a distinct nation state but a faction in Civil War. Noone argues that Whites and Reds in Russia were independent nations, or would you? Take Finland: it gained independence in much the same circumstances as Baltic states. The only difference was that USSR was not able to fully occupy it in 1940. That's it, there is no other reason an average Russian would scoff at Balts and respect Finland than…

Did the Whites and Reds lay claim to specific land that they were declaring independent of the larger mass (note that this is distinctly different from controlling parts of the territory during wartime while laying claim to the entirety)? The Confederacy is much closer to parts of the Russian empire claiming independence than to the Whites and Reds: the only difference is the length that they were independent (though this is commonly how a nation's legitimacy is decided)

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#226

Post by int_19h »

dmix wrote: post #205
suprfsat wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and 97% of Crimea voted to be part of Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

It's interesting that all of the prior polling by relatively politically neutral organizations (UNDP, Razumkov Centre), even dating back to 2009-2011 before the civil war, showed widespread support for at a minimum secession from Ukraine, including multiple polls showing a majority supporting joining Russia (consistently 65% to 70% in favour) yet the whole idea of Crimeans having a voice in their own statehood was re…

A big problem is that in Crimea, divisions go across ethnic lines. Crimean Tatars are a minority there, and so they get outvoted in any referendum, but for them the difference between Crimea being in Russia vs Ukraine is the difference between their autonomy and culture being respected or suppressed. One of the first things that Russia did after annexing Crimea was going after most Crimean Tatar activists and organizations under the guise of fighting extremism and separatism. So the choice is between majoritarianism and human rights, and there's no way to reconcile them.

The other aspect of it is that separatism is illegal under Russian law, period. So, ironically, while it was legal - from the Russian perspective - for Crimea to join, it is not legal for it to leave, or to contemplate leaving. Even vaguely suggesting that there should be a referendum on independence is deemed "extremism", and there are laws making that illegal (and people have been prosecuted under those laws, specifically wrt Crimea).

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#227

Post by mamon »

varjag wrote: post #89
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by “re-gained” independence? They were part of Russia for centuries prior to that. That was them gaining independence for the first time since like the 1500s or so?

They became independent around 1918 and occupied in 1940. Plenty of the modern European nation-states emerged in 20th century, including Poland, Norway, Hungary.. would you dispute statehood of those?

Those countries existed for centuries. History of Europe is long and complicated, it helps to look further back that the last 100 years.

Poland was established in 966, to lose independence in 1795, to regain it in 1918.

Hungary existed since 895, then merged with Austria (at least in theory as equals, not subjects).

They are nothing like, say, Kosovo which was created 10 years ago by arbitrary UN decision, for no good reason.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#228

Post by soperj »

ilkkao wrote: post #76
soperj wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here maps. It's nokia. They're great. Not quite as good as google's offering, but better than apples.

It was Nokia to be precise. Nokia sold it to AUDI, BMW and Daimler in 2015

Missed that some how. Thanks. Looks like other have come on board as well now.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#229

Post by alwayseasy »

4bpp wrote: post #215
treden wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

What's subjective there, though? If you go to Crimea and commit a crime (heh), you will be caught by Russian police and hauled before a Russian court. If you start in a point on Crimea and walk towards Kiev or vice versa, you will be stopped by military who will check if you are allowed to enter Ukraine or Russia respectively. We conclude that there is an international border between Crimea and Ukraine, and Crimea is…

Actually the better term you're looking for what you want is "local intelligence" or "guide".

Don't limit the the definition and use of (navigational) maps by minimizing the "fuzzy feelings" created by (political) maps. Your hypothetical doesn't work, who goes to some contested territory and then wonder where they'll end up in jail or when they'll fall on a military checkpoint? Most of these areas are not ideal for foreign tourists. If you want a map to navigate immediately around Yemen, Syria, Morocco, northern India, Aceh, South Sudan etc you're in trouble.

Entire countries with nationalistic pride and a populist/authoritarian leader like China, Russia, Pakistan, India, Morocco... fight tooth and nails to have maps that conform to their world-representation. Because they can suppress speech and justify violence against populations usually in these territories or manufacture causes for military confrontations. That's usually what political maps are for and they matter if you're a tech company.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#230

Post by int_19h »

EGreg wrote: post #118
kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the real reason is that OSM is, practically speaking, not important enough for countries to bother with censoring it.

Public Data should be open and anyone can run their own policies on integrating crowdsourced changes. One company hosting the data centrally is responsible for dealing with multiple parties and figuring out a resolution. Often the parties have little recourse but to fine it or block it. We see similar issues when Facebook is blasted by Germany for not censoring a post and by the Trump administration for censoring a s…

They are too big because they lock in your social graph. This has very little to do with open source vs proprietary software. FB could be entirely open source, but so long as it's as popular as it is, and there's no way to interact with its users other than joining FB yourself, it's going to remain a monopoly.

To break it up, you need to force them into providing outside access. If and when people can run e.g. Diaspora, but seamlessly interact with people on Facebook, Diaspora would become a lot more popular. Think of email, or XMPP and Matrix federation.

Or we can just break them up physically, on the basis that no single entity should control that much of the market, and have that much dominance.

Post reply on HN