Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says • Hacker News Board

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#401

Post by pvaldes » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 10:50 AM UTC

topmonk wrote: post #398

pvaldes wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that many jails are designed with lots of corridors and halls basically identical. I assume that recording that nothing happened could be as easy as put a number over a different door, (or pick the equivalent door in a different floor), record for a while, stop, remove the number tag, and swap the records.

Yea, I'm sure the people who designed prison procedures didn't think of that before, rolls eyes

Are those the same people that were unable to notice not one, but two cameras broken pointing to a very special recluse for an undefined amount of time?

We could ask the smartest team of architects in the planet to design the most secure jail in the planet and then put idiots at charge. The security of the jail will vanish in a poof of "I couldn't care less about replacing this broken bulb"

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#402

Post by KevinEldon » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 11:31 AM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #267

KevinEldon wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pathologist from the article claims "Epstein suffered multiple fractures in his neck that are more consistent with strangulation than suicide by hanging". This is a forensic claim first, but one that also raises questions about the quality of the system. Mr. White's perspective is interesting, but doesn't speak to the forensics. Mr. White might raise questions about the argument "Epstein couldn't have committed s…

The pathologist from the article, it is important to remember, contradicts the NY ME's report, and has been hired by Epstein's family, who have a wrongful death suit brewing. He's hardly an unbiased source, and unlike the NY ME, he's retired and (while he has a reputation to protect as a human being who cares about such things) he has no career to protect by not screwing up the details on this one.

Bias, reputation, and motive are irrelevant to the claim that "Epstein suffered multiple fractures in his neck that are more consistent with strangulation than suicide by hanging". 1) Did Epstein suffer these fractures? 2) Does established forensic science support that these fractures are more consistent with strangulation? 3) How much more? 4) Is there other evidence that supports the conclusion this was suicide?

The pathologists uses facts and established scientific knowledge to draw a conclusion. Legitimate responses to that conclusion should be factual and scientific. Counter arguments along the lines of the "middle class people don't understand the justice system" or "this guy was paid", however true they may be, don't have any bearing on the neck fractures and if those fractures are consistent with strangulation or suicide.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#403

Post by topmonk » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:14 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #401

topmonk wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, I'm sure the people who designed prison procedures didn't think of that before, rolls eyes

Are those the same people that were unable to notice not one, but two cameras broken pointing to a very special recluse for an undefined amount of time? We could ask the smartest team of architects in the planet to design the most secure jail in the planet and then put idiots at charge. The security of the jail will vanish in a poof of "I couldn't care less about replacing this broken bulb"

> Are those the same people that were unable to notice not one, but two cameras broken pointing to a very special recluse for an undefined amount of time?

Did the people who design the prison also work there as security guards? Is that what you're asking?

> We could ask the smartest team of architects in the planet to design the most secure jail in the planet and then put idiots at charge. The security of the jail will vanish in a poof of "I couldn't care less about replacing this broken bulb"

What does this have to do with what you wrote? This actually sounds that you're arguing that it most likely was a suicide if everyone was so inept. Let me ask, how many times did something like this happen before, do you think, in the last 40 years or so?

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#404

Post by forgottenpass » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:12 PM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #36

Epstein’s death seems the most overt taunt about ruling class impunity in my lifetime. Not only in its circumstances, but in the kind of shifting, threadbare cover stories about everyone with whom he was associated. Bill Gates, for example, had staff overlap between his foundation and Epstein, (including one who was named in Epstein’s will!) and was able to diminish these connections in major media outlets with almos…

If you think his associates were fucking children or involved in the prostitution ring, just say so.

If you don't think that, well then we do have to hem and haw about how much guilt by association they carry. Because for a lot of people, business connections or rubbing elbows for money with bad people doesn't get much blowback. Just look at Tim Cook gladhanding dictators of nations where homosexuality is outlawed. Or manufacturing in countries with ethnic concentration camps.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#405

Post by lozf » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:34 PM UTC

jacobush wrote: post #393

malvosenior wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who's been following the Epstein case for some time and having seen different communities deal with it, I think in the case of Gates a lot of people really looked up to him and refuse to believe that he would do this. There are even comments in this thread about it not being Gates' style. When you look at the whole Epstein story, the people and the patterns, it's pretty clear that Gates was in a very quest…

I agree but what makes it so hard to swallow is that phrase, "be much less than they thought", should really be "be much more than they thought". I mean, your heroes sometimes turn out to be all that and so many more, horrible things. It's hard to fathom that people can contain good and bad qualities, and after the fact push them aside among "bad people". But if you do this, you won't learn anything, or be watchful o…

> I agree but what makes it so hard to swallow is that phrase, "be much less than they thought", should really be "be much more than they thought"

The English Language strikes again. Apologies for wandering off-topic, but to (hopefully) clarify:

You're thinking of less / more in the quantitative sense, suggesting some people have _more_ traits, some of which are unpleasant.

I think GP was using less in the qualitative sense - "a lesser person for lacking moral fiber", if you will.

Both are valid, but contextual ambiguity interferes with interpretation.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#406

Post by tmn » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:57 PM UTC

topmonk wrote: post #359

tmn wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting how Oswald was murdered. And then the murderer conveniently died of cancer soon after. Also interesting how that plot has been made out to be this big mystery with every which way being considered, except for an internal job. The patterns are getting pretty clear now

Every which way is considered because that's what humans do . Everyone wants to be the guy who came up with an original theory to show how clever they are. Your vague “internal job” accusation is no exception to this.

you're correct

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#407

Post by jacobush » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:08 PM UTC

lozf wrote: post #405

jacobush wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree but what makes it so hard to swallow is that phrase, "be much less than they thought", should really be "be much more than they thought". I mean, your heroes sometimes turn out to be all that and so many more, horrible things. It's hard to fathom that people can contain good and bad qualities, and after the fact push them aside among "bad people". But if you do this, you won't learn anything, or be watchful o…

> I agree but what makes it so hard to swallow is that phrase, "be much less than they thought", should really be "be much more than they thought" The English Language strikes again. Apologies for wandering off-topic, but to (hopefully) clarify: You're thinking of less / more in the quantitative sense, suggesting some people have _more_ traits, some of which are unpleasant. I think GP was using less in the qualitativ…

Agreed. I just grabbed a hook in the text to latch onto a mindset I think is prevalent. (Closely related to "us vs them", the in-group and the out-group, etc.)

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#408

Post by jonplackett » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

code_duck wrote: post #338

jonplackett wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, like maybe he has a voice recording of the president saying he likes to grab women by the pussy without their consent...

More likely a video tape of someone grabbing an underage girl somewhere like that without their consent.

My point is, the former already happened, and made zero difference.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#409

Post by CharlesColeman » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

shsjxjbsbs wrote: post #354

CharlesColeman wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a middle ground between shills and honest sincerely held beliefs: that of the useful idiot [1]. Those are people who have been manipulated by real shills to sincerely advocate for the shill's ideas. Real shills usually don't have the resources get the results they want on their own, so their goal is to create useful idiots to magnify their efforts. It's not necessarily relevant to this case, and I agree that…

I think it’s interesting to look at the patterns of historical usage mentioned in the wiki. The phrase always originates with an accusation by party A that party B calls party C useful idiots, but there’s never any evidence backing up the accusation against party B. To me it just seems like a condescending way of dismissing party C - essentially an argument meant to invalidate popular support for party B. It’s not ne…

> The phrase always originates with an accusation by party A that party B calls party C useful idiots, but there’s never any evidence backing up the accusation against party B.

I think the criteria "that party B calls party C" is actually pretty irrelevant to the concept's usefulness.

> essentially an argument meant to invalidate popular support for party B

In most of the cases where I'd use the term "useful idiot" the "party B" doesn't have much popular support, but is rather engaging in manipulation, disinformation, dishonest propaganda, etc. The realization isn't useful as a dismissal, but rather as a reminder that you need to confront both the idiot's sincere belief along with their ignorance of it's goals, implications, and beneficiaries.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#410

Post by shadowgovt » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

KevinEldon wrote: post #402

shadowgovt wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pathologist from the article, it is important to remember, contradicts the NY ME's report, and has been hired by Epstein's family, who have a wrongful death suit brewing. He's hardly an unbiased source, and unlike the NY ME, he's retired and (while he has a reputation to protect as a human being who cares about such things) he has no career to protect by not screwing up the details on this one.

Bias, reputation, and motive are irrelevant to the claim that "Epstein suffered multiple fractures in his neck that are more consistent with strangulation than suicide by hanging". 1) Did Epstein suffer these fractures? 2) Does established forensic science support that these fractures are more consistent with strangulation? 3) How much more? 4) Is there other evidence that supports the conclusion this was suicide? Th…

They are consistent with both, And if the standard were preponderance of evidence and the only evidence on the table where the forensic report, it's two to one odds in favor of homicide by strangulation.

One thing I don't know regarding a medical examiner's job is whether they are supposed to take in additional evidence, and if an ME is required to give one single conclusion. If they are required to give one single conclusion, then it still makes sense that the New York medical examiner would conclude the thing that is more probable in light of circumstances, even if the forensic evidence alone indicates something else is more probable. Because a 25% frequency isn't low enough that one would bet on the 50% frequency event being what occurred in light of the fact that the homicide would have had to happen In a secure and protected facility with an isolated prisoner.

It's almost feels like a Bayesian versus frequentist analysis question.

But in any case, if the medical examiner is required to give a single answer, and their reputation suffers if that answer turns out to be wrong, I would assume that they would factor in mitigating circumstances to allow for the lower probability scenario to outweigh the higher probability scenario in isolation. And the forensics expert who is not responsible for analyzing future cases and may not be constrained to give a single answer is free to answer based on raw probabilities without factoring in circumstances.