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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#281

Post by rtkwe »

rndgermandude wrote: post #276
rtkwe wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just the way nation-states are setup, as part of being in the union constituent states give up part of their autonomy. This happens all the way down the governmental ladder. The other states (or regions I'm not sure how Spain is divided so I'll just say states) also definitely have an interest in maintaining the integrity of the whole nation. Over the years money has flowed both ways both from the other states t…

That's all fine and dandy, but it presumes the participating states actually want to be part of the union. Otherwise it's tyranny in my humble opinion.

I think it depends massively on the situation involved and the state we're talking about. Without suppression beyond "you don't get to just leave" I really hesitate to call it tyranny.

It also seems like if we follow that all the way down where does the fracturing stop and how do you maintain a larger society? Does every sub division of administration have that same right to just say screw the rest of you I'm going home? Allowing it all the way down seems like a ticket straight to fractious setup of loosely associated towns and cities. There's reasons we built up the larger groups over time and part of accessing those benefits requires gluing those partisan impulses together to resist tribal urges.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#282

Post by braythwayt »

hummel wrote: post #199
braythwayt wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is no Catalonia issue" I beg your pardon, are you gaslighting Hacker News? I saw videos of protests. Were those fake? I have friends from Catalonia who tell me there is an issue. Are they lying to me? Whether you agree that Catalonia should leave Spain or not, whether you agree that Spain should jail the leaders of a movement to leave Spain or not, there clearly is an issue. There clearly is some dissent, some…

The protests were violent riots not supported by any political party or entity, Catalan or not. As you can see violence stopped like one week ago, and everything back to normal. For example, you can see here ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkgW7Bab1J8 ) violence blocked the university, so other Catalan students cant go to classes that day. Catalan society is not related to the protest. It is like seeing an Antifa v…

None of that suggests that there is no issue.

I could say almost all the same things about whether the people of Québec want to leave Canada or not, and whether the tactics of those who want to leave are legitimate or not.

But I would never say there is no separation issue in Québec.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#284

Post by yiyus »

rndgermandude wrote: post #171
cfv wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. The fascist dictator who formed modern Spain made it so its constituent lands can expel a part of it but no one part of it can choose to leave. This is the root of why the procés is illegal, and why they are being charged as violent agitators. They are seen as young kids trying to leave their parent's house…

>It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. Why do they need the approval of people living elsewhere?

For the same reason they include Barcelona in their hypothetical new country when most people there do not want independence or the same reason a state with 80% of democratic vote has to accept a republican president voted by people "living elsewhere". That's just how democracy works, else I can just secede if I don't like the result of the elections.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#285

Post by ErneX »

deltron3030 wrote: post #90
iagovar wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the accusation of terrorism is too much, but honestly some of the actions are worrying. I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from, but I understand why so many Catalonians are angry and protest for. But I also understand what different police forces are facing. You get actions like putting trees and blocks of concrete on railroads, making it very dangerous for passengers and…

>I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. A functional democracy implies that the whole has to arrange itself democratically with the parts it consists of, if not it ri…

91% of the people of catalonia voted for the current spanish constitution back 1978, these are the rules of play for all us.

Any change to that constitution should be made by the mechanisms it itself provides, and even in the case a new one is made, it'd have to be voted by the whole country in a referendum.

This crisis has been provoked by irresponsable politicians that have taken shortcuts clearly out of the law in order to secede a whole region of Spain from it, and we also need to keep in mind half of the people from or living in Catalonia do not want to split from Spain.

My 0,02.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#286

Post by aezakmi »

iagovar wrote: post #149
kragen wrote: post #42

Governments† burn libraries. Don't create central points of vulnerability to coercion. That multiplies the effectiveness of coercive force. Create decentralized systems. Git, not GitHub. Bitcoin, not Citibank. Email, not Gmail — although we still need to free email from DNS. Never forget how the Spanish Inquisition — the origin, in the West, of these sorts of degraded "laws" against "criminal content" — treated the J…

Aaaand the black legend strikes again.

Don't expect much from this liberal hellhole.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#287

Post by Leherenn »

iagovar wrote: post #72
zozbot234 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The takedown notice was sent directly by the Spanish paramilitary, but it's supposed to have a court order attached to it, and that would be issued by an independent judiciary. So you're half-right - a bit weird, overall.

> Spanish paramilitary, Guardia Civil is really a police force like the french Gendarmerie, seen it described as paramilitary is a bit odd, tbh.

Well I don't know about Guardia Civil, but Gendarmerie is a branch of the army and distinctly not of the police.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#288

Post by pjc50 »

rndgermandude wrote: post #278
SiempreViernes wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a tightly integrated part of the economical and political system, the people elsewhere would also be severely affected. Why is it obvious that they get to break the system unilaterally?

The UK is tightly integrated into the EU economical and political system. They are breaking away unilaterally. The reason they can do so is that they wouldn't have entered in the first place if there was no instrument to leave again like this (Article 50). The Catalans never voluntarily agreed to be part of Spain as far as I know. They were essentially annexed a long time ago. And yet Spain says they have to stay no…

Article 50 was retrofitted: at the time of joining the EC (as it was then) in 1973, there was no defined mechanism for leaving.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#289

Post by matheusmoreira »

input_sh wrote: post #154
DangerousPie wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be very selfish of me but I'd prefer if Github didn't get shut down over some political argument that I'm not a party in. It would also involve Github taking sides in a very divise political issue that is far from black and white.

What mechanism could a Spanish court use to shut down an American multi-billion dollar company? At worst, it could get GitHub blocked in Spain, or a local Microsoft office might get a stern look or two before Spain renews its Office 365 contract or whatever.

A spanish court could order spanish ISPs to block GitHub until they obey their order. They could also charge spanish Microsoft executives with disobedience, contempt or something similar.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#290

Post by ErneX »

tbatchelli wrote: post #215
hummel wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check referendum on the dates: 9N-2014, 25N-2015, and many others Wikipedia have an extense article about the times they go to vote freely: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceso_soberanista_de_Catalu%...

Those weren't referendums. The Spanish law doesn't allow independence referendums, that's why the Spanish courts handed a 100 year sentence on the Catalan politicians that allowed one. They were consultations with no tied outcomes. Again, the Spanish law today does not allow a referendum about independence. It could if the Spanish government allowed it, but they won't, after many years of asking. A large majority a c…

You have to keep in mind that those referendums were basically pro-independence acts, not an official vote by any measure. So it's obvious the results are wins of the pro-independence side.
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