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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#271

Post by w0land »

ohduran wrote: post #205
hootbootscoot wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's worth noting that spanish over-reactions may be rooted in memories/fears of ETA, which is an entirely different group from an entirely different region also seeking secession. the concern is the "suppress this at any cost" approach. the heavy sentences can be seen as provocative (13 years for holding an "illegal" election is indefensible. it's pure authoritarian slapdown, reeks of hubris, and spits in the face o…

I've never heard of "Piadina" secessionism, could you please shed any light on that? Can't find anything about it

Probably the op is refering to Padania in Italy, lega nord.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#273

Post by gerardvivancos »

mihemihe wrote: post #165

Don't get the wrong message because they use the term Democratic and play being the victims. Majority of people in Catalonia do not support secession. Those are the real victims, the 50%-ish which are silent, and suffering every day not being able to declare in public their love for their country, Spain and Catalonia, their region. They used this app to organize violent riots, taking advantage of the pacifist demonst…

"Majority" because you-say-so.

No one talks about the ones who want to remain? No one besides all the media in the whole country, you mean?

C'mon.

According to you, the victims are some 50%-ish of people, but somehow the other 50%-ish (that is implied in what you say) is not?

Violent riots? Do you know what a violent riot is? Have you seen the police actions? Have you been on the streets these days? Let's stop with the lie spreading.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#274

Post by nitwit005 »

dmaldona wrote: post #136
deltron3030 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. A functional democracy implies that the whole has to arrange itself democratically with the parts it consists of, if not it ri…

In order to have a healthy democracy we first need the rule of the law. Constitutions are made to define the foundations of those laws and protect citizen minorities against majority abuses: what if 80% of the population of a region decides to expel the other 20% because of whatever reasons? The fact that the state tries to preserve the integrity of the country is necessary to keep the rule of the law. For if it just…

It's not entirely sensible to talk about "rule of law" when it comes to secession. Most countries exist in violation of some earlier set of laws. They were part of some nation and broke away, or they replaced their own government with another form through revolt.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#275

Post by Arkhaine_kupo »

kuroikyu wrote: post #214
Arkhaine_kupo wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok lets break this down. Its not similar to Brexit, United kingdom is a union of different countries, Spain is a single country. The UK allowed a referendum because it has to. Spain voted its constitution in 1978, that means most of the voters are still alive and it got ratified in every community including Barcelona. So there are people protesting now that the constitution does not imminently allow a referendum that…

> The UK allowed a referendum because it has to. Spain voted its constitution in 1978, that means most of the voters are still alive and it got ratified in every community including Barcelona. So there are people protesting now that the constitution does not imminently allow a referendum that voted in favour of that clause being there 40 years ago. You mean the same vote where people could chose whether to apply that…

Those where not the only two options. That was the fear and one of the reasons it got voted so effusively. But other regions like the Basque Country refused to give up territorial and historical rights like their tax charter which they have had for ages. Catalunya did not get special treatment, did not negociate any special treatment, and their retconning of history into "we were bullied into this deal ages ago and now we are oppresed" is objectively false. They are one of the most prosperous regions in Spain, the constitution voters are quite alive and until the last couple years they had no real claim of interference of the central goverment in their affairs.

Spain allows for constitutional reform so its not like the dictatorship or constitution choice was an end all of debate. It simply that the threashold for Spain to allow changes to the constitution are 66% of Spanish goverment. So I have a hard time seeing how 51% of Catalans = democracy 66% of Spain = oppresion. Both seem democratic, now the question is who gets to vote and how many votes you need. But that doesn't make it less democratic, it might be unfair but thats a completely different topic.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#276

Post by rndgermandude »

rtkwe wrote: post #260
rndgermandude wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. Why do they need the approval of people living elsewhere?

It's just the way nation-states are setup, as part of being in the union constituent states give up part of their autonomy. This happens all the way down the governmental ladder. The other states (or regions I'm not sure how Spain is divided so I'll just say states) also definitely have an interest in maintaining the integrity of the whole nation. Over the years money has flowed both ways both from the other states t…

That's all fine and dandy, but it presumes the participating states actually want to be part of the union. Otherwise it's tyranny in my humble opinion.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#277

Post by gerardvivancos »

yxhuvud wrote: post #252
mihemihe wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is simple majority enough to split a country, change the constitution, and change the citizenship of millions of citizens? Some people think it would require a qualified majority for such a change. How big? Maybe a 70%, and 80%? A referendum when we are in the 50%-50% is a dangerous proposition, and against the law, and definitely will make the things worse.

That is a very reasonable question, and Brexit is also relevant in that discussion. Perhaps it would be a good idea to require a qualified majority for cases like this.

Why does not the status quo require some qualified majority?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#278

Post by rndgermandude »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #253
rndgermandude wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. Why do they need the approval of people living elsewhere?

It's a tightly integrated part of the economical and political system, the people elsewhere would also be severely affected. Why is it obvious that they get to break the system unilaterally?

The UK is tightly integrated into the EU economical and political system. They are breaking away unilaterally. The reason they can do so is that they wouldn't have entered in the first place if there was no instrument to leave again like this (Article 50).

The Catalans never voluntarily agreed to be part of Spain as far as I know. They were essentially annexed a long time ago. And yet Spain says they have to stay no matter what. This doesn't sound right to me.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#279

Post by bilbo0s »

gerardvivancos wrote: post #212
pmarin wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It not the government but the judicial authorities, we have distribution of power. It's embarrassing that the title is intentionally misleading.

Actually the shutdown is asked by the Guardia Civil, which is a police, not a judicial authority

Genuinely confused by these responses. But I don't really know anything about government in Spain.

Are the Guardia Civil and the judicial branch not part of the government in Spain? I mean, it's still the Spanish government right?

Just for context, in the US we have police and national guard and judges and prosecutors, etc. But we would consider them all to be part of the government.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#280

Post by tbatchelli »

Arkhaine_kupo wrote: post #264
tbatchelli wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might not know much about Spanish history. The Catalan movement has existed for at least over a century. We had revolts quashed, we had our language forbidden, we had forced economic depression, presidents executed, all since early 19th century. When do we get your approval, at 150 years? 200?

the catalan movement from 100 years ago and now is not the same. The revolutions of the late 19th century where far left, considering the absolute barbaric infighting between anarchists, communists and republicans in BCN which heavily hindered the efforts against rising fascism. The Catalan movement now is not comunist and anarchist, is heavily favoured by Catalan elites. The Puyol family being a clear example. The s…

Just saying, you said this is new therefore invalid. Now you talk about it being different therefore invalid. I think you are a holding a political position but trying to mask it with random requests for legitimacy.

Back to your original statement, when do you give legitimacy to a movement?

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