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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#221

Post by mihemihe »

kazagistar wrote: post #210
mihemihe wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong and Catalonia are completely different stories, you know that, but still we like to draw the attention to Hong Kong and find similarities where there are none. They closed other sources such as websites, and VPS hosting mirrors. You cannot simply "close" WhatsApp or Telegram or SMS, that is not how it works, unless you just cut the service for everybody, or go down the rabbit hole of chasing hundreds if ad-…

Wouldn't doing right be having a proper referendum, ideally with international oversight, to get the real answer to the question? Everyone likes to think they are on the side of a majority, but its talking out of your ass til you actually do the democracy.

Is simple majority enough to split a country, change the constitution, and change the citizenship of millions of citizens? Some people think it would require a qualified majority for such a change. How big? Maybe a 70%, and 80%? A referendum when we are in the 50%-50% is a dangerous proposition, and against the law, and definitely will make the things worse.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#222

Post by gerardvivancos »

aregue wrote: post #213

I wonder if this letter is truly from Guardia Civil or is it from someone else impersonating it. The content reads amateurish, such as the claim "Tsunami Democratic's main goal is coordinating these riots and terrorist actions by using any possible mean" without refearing to any specific actions or events. The assertion that Tsunami Democratic has been declared a terrorist organisation by National High Court is simpl…

Honestly, I would not rule out the Guardia Civil from writing amateurish content.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#223

Post by commandlinefan »

komarrian wrote: post #2

This is outrageous "Tsunami Democratic" has not coordinated any terrorist attack nor has an attack taken place in Spain... They are abusing antiterrorist laws to quash peaceful protests and GitHub is complying.

> abusing antiterrorist laws

No “abuse” necessary: this has been the plan all along. It’s taken a little longer than expected, but things are finally falling into place now.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#224

Post by vitobcn »

banjodeluxe wrote: post #35

For a bit of context I'll leave my two cents here trying to be as objective as possible, leaving politics out of it as much as I can. Following the judge's veredict of the Catalan politicians who coordinated the "proces", or series of political movements to attempt to secede Catalonia from Spain; demonstrations have arisen within Catalonia protesting said judgement - the politicians were essentially deemed as conspir…

The takedown is referring to charges of terrorism: "the movement Tsunami Democratic has been confirmed as a criminal organization driving people to commit terrorist attacks. Tsunami Democratic's main goal is coordinating these riots and terrorist actions by using any possible mean."

Can anybody point me to such terrorist actions? Tsunami Democratic is indeed organizing demonstrations and protests, but I don't understand that to be terrorism, especially if they are doing so repeatedly calling for "non-violence". Straight from their page: https://tsunamidemocratic.github.io/noviolencia.html

I don't necessarily agree with their actions, but to attempt to take down a website / app on trumped up charges doesn't seem appropriate for an established western democracy...

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#225

Post by gerardvivancos »

pmarin wrote: post #24
giancarlostoro wrote: post #14

Whats embarassing here is that Spain now joins the likes of China and Russia regardless of whom in the government sent the request , at least in the context of government takedowns. https://github.com/github/gov-takedowns/ This is quite shameful.

It not the government but the judicial authorities, we have distribution of power. It's embarrassing that the title is intentionally misleading.

Distribution of power in theory, yes. If you're Spanish you very well know that's NOT the case.

And it's clear that this lack of separation is rooted in the minds of Spanish politicians and governors. Here's the Vice President of Spain basically threatening the Belgium Executive if the Belgium Courts don't extradite Carles Puigdemont

https://thediplomatinspain.com/en/2019/10/spain-tells-belgiu...

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#226

Post by tbatchelli »

Arkhaine_kupo wrote: post #191
tbatchelli wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must have missed something. What are those two legal referendums that you speak of? Also, wouldn't the reasons for independence be up to the citizens? You say there have none...

I think he means no historically justifiable reasons. Most countries demanding self determination due so in religious, political or historical basis. Catalan identitarianism is very very recent. Culturally they are as Spanish as any other region (spain is relatively federal more so than a single monolithic culture like France). Some of the main reasons for claimed independence are "Spain steals from us". Now this is…

I think you might not know much about Spanish history. The Catalan movement has existed for at least over a century. We had revolts quashed, we had our language forbidden, we had forced economic depression, presidents executed, all since early 19th century. When do we get your approval, at 150 years? 200?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#227

Post by kuschku »

mschuster91 wrote: post #170
mihemihe wrote: post #165

Don't get the wrong message because they use the term Democratic and play being the victims. Majority of people in Catalonia do not support secession. Those are the real victims, the 50%-ish which are silent, and suffering every day not being able to declare in public their love for their country, Spain and Catalonia, their region. They used this app to organize violent riots, taking advantage of the pacifist demonst…

It's similar to Brexit. No matter what the government does, 50% of people will be utterly pissed off. But the biggest problem is that, unlike the UK where Scotland was allowed to hold a proper referendum in 2014, the Spanish government is not only not allowing holding a real referendum that would settle the issue for the next few years, but also prosecuting those responsible for the 2017 referendum with extremely har…

The interesting part is that the 13 years sentence might actually be illegal, and won’t hold up against an EU court.

As Puigdemont was in Schleswig-Holstein in Germany at the moment of the arrest, German law limits the crimes for which Spain could extradite him, and limits the maximum sentence Spain can enforce, per the extradition agreement. This also applies to the cases which happened after the extradition.

One can speculate why he specifically chose Schleswig-Holstein, but it’s the only region in Europe where, 1920, due to a peaceful referendum, a part of the country separated, and joined another country – the Northern Schleswig seceding from Germany and joining Denmark.

Which is why the judges in Germany ruling over the extradition were likely more positive towards him, and first ruled that any and all cases against him for treason, secession, and anything like it have to be dropped, and he can only be extradited to spain under the condition that spain only prosecute him and any people he worked together with for misuse of public funds.

And this ruling by the court deciding over the extradition also meant that spain can at most enforce a sentence of a few months, but mostly only a monetary fine.

So what Spain is doing here is legally against most EU laws.

Which is not the first time, considering EU law specifically demands the right for self-determination for any and all people, minorities, and regional groups, such as the danish minority in Schleswig-Holstein for example, and the same applies to the catalan minority in Spain.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#228

Post by manuelflara »

Unai wrote: post #198
mindB wrote: post #156

Github will not be shutdown over any action they do or do not take in Spain. The worst that can happen to Github is that they are prevented from doing business in Spain. Given how strongly Spain has come down against freedom of expression on the Catalonia issue, Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Let me repeat, Spain has come down hard enough ag…

What a tremendously uneducated comment. Freedom of expression has not being limited in Spain in any way or form, not at all. The apk was removed because a judge (not politics, not the police) confirmed that the app was used to organize violent manifestations. And GitHub had to legally comply with the warrant. No action is being taken to stop manifestations, only to stop the organization of violence. In case you want…

> What a tremendously uneducated comment. Freedom of expression has not being limited in Spain in any way or form, not at all.

What an ironic couple of sentences tied together... In Spain we have rappers who have been sentenced to jail time for having lyrics criticizing the King. If that isn't limiting freedom of expression, I don't know what is.

Reference: https://www.elperiodico.com/es/ocio-y-cultura/20180221/valto...

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#229

Post by gerardvivancos »

jarfil wrote: post #46
komarrian wrote: post #2

This is outrageous "Tsunami Democratic" has not coordinated any terrorist attack nor has an attack taken place in Spain... They are abusing antiterrorist laws to quash peaceful protests and GitHub is complying.

"Peaceful" does not mean destroying the streets, setting cars on fire, throwing incendiary devices at the cops, or bullying those who don't agree with you.

The argument for self defence still holds. Just look at the police's actions these days. Is anyone here interested in the examples?

Anyway, there's a huge leap from riots (and, please, look at riots in other countries...) to terrorism.

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