The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District • Hacker News Board

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#71

Post by IkmoIkmo » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #24

close04 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not once I heard of a local Dutch girl doing this. How is this relevant? I mean in what manner would nationality change your opinion on this topic?

Most of the time they are exploiting Eastern Europeans from poor countries. Many times they are trafficked by mafia types and have their passports/documents taken away.

Definitely not most of the time. In Amsterdam, window prostitutes need to be registered with the municipality, chamber of commerce, tax authorities, and with the window operator they operate at. Minimum age is 21. This operator needs a license, which requires a municipality approved plan of operation.

National police authorities do extensive research concerning prostitution because it touches key issues of organised crime, in particular illegal prostitution, human trafficking, violence, money laundering etc. The amount of problems they find with window prostitution are relatively small, because they're licensed and under supervision of various authorities. The amount of human trafficking, taking away of passports etc you describe, doesn't happen much at all in the red light district.

It does happen, but not in window prostitution (which has fixed, licensed addresses, which are supervised). Rather it happens in the shadow, i.e. various somewhat secret and temporary networks which offer prostitution services at constantly changing addresses, with front men running the operations. Almost all cases where police finds out about human trafficking, violence, money laundering, underage prostitution etc, is from this underground sector.

I'm not saying the red light district is paradise or that I'd want me or my friends to work there. But it's not really where most of the problems are. When people speak about issues in the Netherlands with respect to prostitution, it's either NIMBYism in the red light district, or the issues with illegal underground prostitution outside of the red light district. People seem to conflate the two in this thread.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#72

Post by DoreenMichele » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #65

DoreenMichele wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As soon as those 'normal' people were living there they started to complain about all the noise and the shady figures that were hanging around. So it's like when Americans create a new suburb in the country, then get pissed off about the rooster crowing at 5am on their day off. (Insert some joke here about cocks that somehow applies to both farms and red light districts.) Edit: To be fair, some of the concerns outlin…

To be fair, people might not know about the roosters when they move in. Maybe it's more like people buying a house next to an airport that's been there for 50 years, and then complaining about all the airplane noise.

I can well imagine there are people who moved to the red light district for cheap housing and a love of historic architecture who are genuinely surprised to find that there's so much sex, drugs and obnoxious tourist activity.

People tend to not really know what a neighborhood is really like until they've lived there for a bit. It's common for things to be different during the day versus nighttime or weekdays versus weekends and a lot of places change dramatically seasonally or have some very big annual event that impacts the entire area for days or weeks.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#73

Post by Animats » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

lacker wrote: post #29

kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #16

Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on their doorstep. "Like, wouldn't you rather have it be regulated and legal?" Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own doorway. "Like, why are you trying to get rid of all of these poor homeless people?" "What's the big deal, maaaaan?" they ask, "Why do you have a problem with it?" But the second the problem c…

They could operate more like marijuana sales do here in California. You have to get a license and the number of licenses in an area is limited, so there isn’t a “district”. Advertising is restricted. Most dispensaries are just bland unmarked buildings in inexpensive office or warehouse areas. It just seems possible to avoid both black markets and “vice districts”.

That's how Switzerland does it. Prostitution is legal, regulated, and hookers charge value added tax like every other business.

Amsterdam's problem, from the article, seems to be tourism, not sex. The city is being overwhelmed by visitors.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#74

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #41

brosinante wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right - because say, there's obviously no nuance required between "rough sleepers are still people" and "let's add spikes to the building entrance so we don't have to look at rough sleepers in the morning". It's really just a bunch of hippie hypocrites, slurring their "maaaaan" and pretending everything is alright until they call the cops, and you're certainly not projecting your own view about the world, making spur…

> Right - because say, there's obviously no nuance required between "rough sleepers are still people" and "let's add spikes to the building entrance so we don't have to look at rough sleepers in the morning". Every single person, without exception, you included, would be really pissed off with and do everything to get rid of a rough sleeper sleeping on under their window. Instead of adding spikes, they will call the…

[deleted]

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#75

Post by plurple » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #48

sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

> it exploits these people even if it’s their choice. This is a talking point used by people who try to criminalize sex work, and it flies completely in the face of what sex workers' advocacy groups around the world actually say. No, you're not equating sex work with sex trafficking in your comment, but you're adopting wholesale the language of people who do. > But the real issue is that none of the girl prostitutes…

Because most of the foreign sex workers are trafficked in and forced to do the work.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#76

Post by geggam » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:05 PM UTC

toasterlovin wrote: post #47

tempguy9999 wrote: post #32

> Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on their doorstep You are confusing or conflating sex work with drug use. > Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own doorway I would be ok with that; you don't speak for me. > self-righteously Yeah, sure. None of your post reflects on your self-centredness.

What if a homeless person takes a shit in your door step right in the broad daylight (actual thing that happened at my place of work several years ago). Cool with that as well?

Public restrooms are a problem in many areas. Take San Francisco. People piss and shit on the streets, you would think its because they have no couth, I almost ended up shitting on the street because no one lets you use their toilet without buying something and the friggin lines were too long.

I still dont understand why folks dont let tiny houses and allocate certain parking lots to let the homeless use for sleeping at night. Its not like you can pretend they arent there and make them disappear

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#77

Post by com » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:05 PM UTC

kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #16

Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on their doorstep. "Like, wouldn't you rather have it be regulated and legal?" Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own doorway. "Like, why are you trying to get rid of all of these poor homeless people?" "What's the big deal, maaaaan?" they ask, "Why do you have a problem with it?" But the second the problem c…

I live in the Red Light District and I’m very happy that the problem on my doorstep isn’t prostitution or hard drugs. These things exist in my neighbourhood but they seem to be fairly well managed without huge irreparable harm [1], as opposed to the 25,000 tourists who walk past my front door, put cigarette butts through my letterbox, vomit on my door handle and convert every decent local shop into a Nutella store or shitty boring overpriced bar.

So yeah, I’m cool with legalised prostitution and quasi legal drugs [2].

1. Mainly because I’m on first name terms with some of the girls who work behind the windows or who are part of the cleaning crews and who live locally - and who I see at the supermarket.

2. I had a disastrous furniture delivery that was rescued by two of the street dealers who helped me get stuff through the upstairs window when the delivery guy left when he ran over time. Sweet guys, as far as that profession goes.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#78

Post by geggam » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:07 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #53

naasking wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe if it was far from the center and if it was done in a way where you would be 100% sure where nobody was exploited, then yes All kinds of low and high paying jobs are exploitative and hardly anybody cares. But as soon as some degree of sex is involved, everyone is suddenly peculiarly interested exploitation. Why is sex treated so differently?

Because it is intimate, and so it is far harder to ignore, and at the same time it also has a long history, ironically, of being one of the few avenues of financial independence that has always been open to women in particular even when they've been shut out of other options, and as such it has a long history of being a challenge to social control and order.

I have a different theory. I think women dont want sex workers around because its competition.

I wonder if I would have ever got married had there been a regular prostitution place to go to.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#79

Post by chimeracoder » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

plurple wrote: post #75

chimeracoder wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it exploits these people even if it’s their choice. This is a talking point used by people who try to criminalize sex work, and it flies completely in the face of what sex workers' advocacy groups around the world actually say. No, you're not equating sex work with sex trafficking in your comment, but you're adopting wholesale the language of people who do. > But the real issue is that none of the girl prostitutes…

Because most of the foreign sex workers are trafficked in and forced to do the work.

> Because most of the foreign sex workers are trafficked in and forced to do the work.

Citation needed, especially since they're unionized and very vocally and visibly fighting these measures.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#80

Post by naasking » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 5:11 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #26

naasking wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe if it was far from the center and if it was done in a way where you would be 100% sure where nobody was exploited, then yes All kinds of low and high paying jobs are exploitative and hardly anybody cares. But as soon as some degree of sex is involved, everyone is suddenly peculiarly interested exploitation. Why is sex treated so differently?

Probably a few reasons, it often involves very vulnerable people, people who were coerced, people who were tricked (we have student jobs for you, hand over your passport though), etc. People are similarly uncomfortable with migrant manual laborers in the ME who are also coerced and tricked, though many do it knowingly because the alternative is worse. Initially trafficked sex workers tend younger than initially inden…

> Initially trafficked sex workers tend younger than initially indentured migrant manual laborers, so they can be taken advantage of easier.

But this isn't the same thing. You're talking about human trafficking, not sex work as a whole.

If Nike trafficked a bunch of kids to set up a sweat shop in North America, we'd be upset not because shoes were being made on our continent, but because of the trafficking and exploitation of underage workers.

Analogously, if some scumbag trafficked a bunch of women to work as prostitutes, we should be upset because of the trafficking and the coercion and strong-arming you describe, not because of the sex they engaged in.

So voluntary sex work should be perfectly fine, but it's not, and most discussions surrounding sex work seem to classify it as inherently exploitative, which simply boggles my mind.