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The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

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Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#21

Post by naasking »

sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

> Maybe if it was far from the center and if it was done in a way where you would be 100% sure where nobody was exploited, then yes

All kinds of low and high paying jobs are exploitative and hardly anybody cares. But as soon as some degree of sex is involved, everyone is suddenly peculiarly interested exploitation. Why is sex treated so differently?

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#22

Post by close04 »

moccachino wrote: post #9
close04 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not once I heard of a local Dutch girl doing this. How is this relevant? I mean in what manner would nationality change your opinion on this topic?

I read them to mean that the fact that no Dutch girl is doing it is indicative of exploitation. Dutch people generally have lots of opportunities that many other nationalities don't. It's impossible to look at someone and tell with certainty that they are being exploited, but it's easy to look at a group of people and notice if any of them are from the local privileged peoples, and if most of them are from poorer reg…

> it is indicative of exploitation

In rich countries a lot of low paying jobs are performed by foreigners coming from poorer countries. I'm sure almost nobody enjoys any of those jobs but they do them because they need the money and have little choice.

And by the nature of these low paying jobs they only attract people with no other options, foreigners dreaming about a better life, completely unaware of the risks. This opens the door to abuse. I'm certain that plenty of locals (whatever country we're talking about) would do this job if it payed really well.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#23

Post by dylanz »

TylerE wrote: post #3
sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

> imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people So, just like multiple neighborhoods in any big urban city? Except that it's at least somewhat regulated/under legal protection?

Exactly. There will always be people doing drugs and paying for sex. I think Amsterdam is in a unique position to try and come up with ways to make this all work. It's definitely new ground, and won't be an easy task to say the least!

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#24

Post by wil421 »

close04 wrote: post #5
sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

> Not once I heard of a local Dutch girl doing this. How is this relevant? I mean in what manner would nationality change your opinion on this topic?

Most of the time they are exploiting Eastern Europeans from poor countries. Many times they are trafficked by mafia types and have their passports/documents taken away.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#25

Post by misja111 »

sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

I have been living in Amsterdam for the last 25 years, here is a bit of background.

25 years ago the red light district was a no go area for except for people looking for sex or drugs. But in the recent decades that has slowly changed. At some point it became fashionable to live in the old city centre and in the red light district housing was cheap. As soon as those 'normal' people were living there they started to complain about all the noise and the shady figures that were hanging around. And the city government listened; now the policy is to make the Red Light district a normal neighbourhood for families and what not.

>> But the real issue is that none of the girl prostitutes are locals.

This has a simple reason: the red light district is all window prostitution, and as a local girl you wouldn't like to be standing there when your uncle or some friend happens to be passing by.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#26

Post by mc32 »

naasking wrote: post #21
sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

> Maybe if it was far from the center and if it was done in a way where you would be 100% sure where nobody was exploited, then yes All kinds of low and high paying jobs are exploitative and hardly anybody cares. But as soon as some degree of sex is involved, everyone is suddenly peculiarly interested exploitation. Why is sex treated so differently?

Probably a few reasons, it often involves very vulnerable people, people who were coerced, people who were tricked (we have student jobs for you, hand over your passport though), etc. People are similarly uncomfortable with migrant manual laborers in the ME who are also coerced and tricked, though many do it knowingly because the alternative is worse. Initially trafficked sex workers tend younger than initially indentured migrant manual laborers, so they can be taken advantage of easier.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#27

Post by brosinante »

kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #16

Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on their doorstep. "Like, wouldn't you rather have it be regulated and legal?" Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own doorway. "Like, why are you trying to get rid of all of these poor homeless people?" "What's the big deal, maaaaan?" they ask, "Why do you have a problem with it?" But the second the problem c…

Right - because say, there's obviously no nuance required between "rough sleepers are still people" and "let's add spikes to the building entrance so we don't have to look at rough sleepers in the morning".

It's really just a bunch of hippie hypocrites, slurring their "maaaaan" and pretending everything is alright until they call the cops, and you're certainly not projecting your own view about the world, making spurious connections between sex work and horrible drug abuse to avoid putting forward any real argument besides internet outrage.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#28

Post by GrumpyNl »

dylanz wrote: post #23
TylerE wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people So, just like multiple neighborhoods in any big urban city? Except that it's at least somewhat regulated/under legal protection?

Exactly. There will always be people doing drugs and paying for sex. I think Amsterdam is in a unique position to try and come up with ways to make this all work. It's definitely new ground, and won't be an easy task to say the least!

Most major cities in Holland have a red light district. The Hague has two, Rotterdam one.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#29

Post by lacker »

kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #16

Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on their doorstep. "Like, wouldn't you rather have it be regulated and legal?" Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own doorway. "Like, why are you trying to get rid of all of these poor homeless people?" "What's the big deal, maaaaan?" they ask, "Why do you have a problem with it?" But the second the problem c…

They could operate more like marijuana sales do here in California. You have to get a license and the number of licenses in an area is limited, so there isn’t a “district”. Advertising is restricted. Most dispensaries are just bland unmarked buildings in inexpensive office or warehouse areas.

It just seems possible to avoid both black markets and “vice districts”.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#30

Post by posterboy »

kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #16

Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on their doorstep. "Like, wouldn't you rather have it be regulated and legal?" Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own doorway. "Like, why are you trying to get rid of all of these poor homeless people?" "What's the big deal, maaaaan?" they ask, "Why do you have a problem with it?" But the second the problem c…

Jerking of in somebody's doorstep is still punishable under disturbing the peace laws, Erregung öffentlichen Ergernisses in German, surely there's a Dutch analog
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