The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District • Hacker News Board

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#51

Post by DoreenMichele » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:36 PM UTC

misja111 wrote: post #25

sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

I have been living in Amsterdam for the last 25 years, here is a bit of background. 25 years ago the red light district was a no go area for except for people looking for sex or drugs. But in the recent decades that has slowly changed. At some point it became fashionable to live in the old city centre and in the red light district housing was cheap. As soon as those 'normal' people were living there they started to c…

As soon as those 'normal' people were living there they started to complain about all the noise and the shady figures that were hanging around.

So it's like when Americans create a new suburb in the country, then get pissed off about the rooster crowing at 5am on their day off.

(Insert some joke here about cocks that somehow applies to both farms and red light districts.)

Edit: To be fair, some of the concerns outlined in the article seem completely fair and reasonable. The article indicates things have actually changed in ways that degrade the area and are worrisome.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#52

Post by toasterlovin » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:36 PM UTC

jandrese wrote: post #33

mc32 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably a few reasons, it often involves very vulnerable people, people who were coerced, people who were tricked (we have student jobs for you, hand over your passport though), etc. People are similarly uncomfortable with migrant manual laborers in the ME who are also coerced and tricked, though many do it knowingly because the alternative is worse. Initially trafficked sex workers tend younger than initially inden…

How much worse is it than people who are trafficked in to work as housekeepers, lawn service, construction, etc...? The primary problem is the dubious legal situation the prostitutes find themselves in which enables even worse exploitation.

Do you think being raped is worse than being mugged? If so, then there's your answer to why people care more about human trafficking for sex than for manual labor.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#53

Post by vidarh » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:37 PM UTC

naasking wrote: post #21

sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

> Maybe if it was far from the center and if it was done in a way where you would be 100% sure where nobody was exploited, then yes All kinds of low and high paying jobs are exploitative and hardly anybody cares. But as soon as some degree of sex is involved, everyone is suddenly peculiarly interested exploitation. Why is sex treated so differently?

Because it is intimate, and so it is far harder to ignore, and at the same time it also has a long history, ironically, of being one of the few avenues of financial independence that has always been open to women in particular even when they've been shut out of other options, and as such it has a long history of being a challenge to social control and order.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#54

Post by toasterlovin » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:38 PM UTC

rjtavares wrote: post #34

naasking wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe if it was far from the center and if it was done in a way where you would be 100% sure where nobody was exploited, then yes All kinds of low and high paying jobs are exploitative and hardly anybody cares. But as soon as some degree of sex is involved, everyone is suddenly peculiarly interested exploitation. Why is sex treated so differently?

Just a guess: because sex has a long history of generating babies as a byproduct.

Because sex outside of marriage undermines marriage, which is a fundamental societal institution, and the broad availability of sex for pay means it's easier for sex outside of marriage to happen.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#55

Post by chimeracoder » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:38 PM UTC

Synaesthesia wrote: post #35

One of my favourite authors is Chris Hedges. I was surprised to discover he is against decriminalisation of sex work. His arguments actually won me over. https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-real-face-of-prostitut... https://www.truthdig.com/articles/prostitution-being-raped-f... https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-underbelly-of-the-sex-...

> One of my favourite authors is Chris Hedges. I was surprised to discover he is against decriminalisation of sex work. His arguments actually won me over.

Why do you value his arguments more than the arguments of the overwhelming majority of sex workers, who soundly reject the claims that he makes as both inaccurate and downright offensive?

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#56

Post by yabadabadoes » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

mido22 wrote: post #4

sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

so... it is okay as long as people can't see it? > wherever there’s money, there’s corruption ... I guess I should stop working in IT

I actually disagree strongly with the trend of moving to non-urban red light districts. My neighborhood is incredibly safe for everyone at all hours because of the density of legal sex workers, most of which will call police when they see a disturbance. It is also relatively resistant to corruption, because interactions between the police, the workers and the establishments are overheard.

There's an excellent claim that most domestic abuse per capita happens in suburbs in contrast to most reported abuse. I would look for better counter evidence before moving the fence.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#57

Post by pytester » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #16

Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on their doorstep. "Like, wouldn't you rather have it be regulated and legal?" Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own doorway. "Like, why are you trying to get rid of all of these poor homeless people?" "What's the big deal, maaaaan?" they ask, "Why do you have a problem with it?" But the second the problem c…

>Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own doorway.

I'm cool with this. I consider it a part and parcel of living in the city center. I want homelessness to be on display rather than hidden away because it's a permanent reminder of how much society has failed its most vulnerable members.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#58

Post by tempguy9999 » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

toasterlovin wrote: post #47

tempguy9999 wrote: post #32

> Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on their doorstep You are confusing or conflating sex work with drug use. > Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own doorway I would be ok with that; you don't speak for me. > self-righteously Yeah, sure. None of your post reflects on your self-centredness.

What if a homeless person takes a shit in your door step right in the broad daylight (actual thing that happened at my place of work several years ago). Cool with that as well?

Quite possibly not, but if there aren't toilets, or if the people have literally no inside place to sleep, or if they're homeless due to mental illness, a turd on your doorstep is a symptom of a bigger problem. Agree or disagree?

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#59

Post by vidarh » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

GrumpyNl wrote: post #28

dylanz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. There will always be people doing drugs and paying for sex. I think Amsterdam is in a unique position to try and come up with ways to make this all work. It's definitely new ground, and won't be an easy task to say the least!

Most major cities in Holland have a red light district. The Hague has two, Rotterdam one.

Most major cities have one. The only difference tends to be how obvious it is to visitors. E.g. walk around Soho in London and pay attention, and you see hints of it all over the place; they're just not sitting in the windows.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#60

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

tempguy9999 wrote: post #32

> Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on their doorstep You are confusing or conflating sex work with drug use. > Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own doorway I would be ok with that; you don't speak for me. > self-righteously Yeah, sure. None of your post reflects on your self-centredness.

[deleted]