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The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

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Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#41

Post by kilo_bravo_3 »

brosinante wrote: post #27
kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #16

Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on their doorstep. "Like, wouldn't you rather have it be regulated and legal?" Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own doorway. "Like, why are you trying to get rid of all of these poor homeless people?" "What's the big deal, maaaaan?" they ask, "Why do you have a problem with it?" But the second the problem c…

Right - because say, there's obviously no nuance required between "rough sleepers are still people" and "let's add spikes to the building entrance so we don't have to look at rough sleepers in the morning". It's really just a bunch of hippie hypocrites, slurring their "maaaaan" and pretending everything is alright until they call the cops, and you're certainly not projecting your own view about the world, making spur…

> Right - because say, there's obviously no nuance required between "rough sleepers are still people" and "let's add spikes to the building entrance so we don't have to look at rough sleepers in the morning".

Every single person, without exception, you included, would be really pissed off with and do everything to get rid of a rough sleeper sleeping on under their window.

Instead of adding spikes, they will call the police. They would add spikes, but the police are free.

I know this, you know this, I know that you know this, and you know that I know that you know this.

But because it is "others" getting rid of bums, people get to scoff online.

Like I said, it is one of the most deliciously hypocritical things about the internet. It causes my heart to race from excitement whenever I see someone do it.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#42

Post by tempguy9999 »

tecleandor wrote: post #38
sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

"And it’s also mostly lots of people that need he money. " Are you implying that people is working for the money and not just for the sake of it?

Might shock you but some prostitutes do enjoy their work. I guess it's the higher paid, non-streetwalkers though.

edit: "[...] she stated that she enjoyed her job as a prostitute [...]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_Coghlan#After_the_trial

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#43

Post by landryraccoon »

mc32 wrote: post #26
naasking wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe if it was far from the center and if it was done in a way where you would be 100% sure where nobody was exploited, then yes All kinds of low and high paying jobs are exploitative and hardly anybody cares. But as soon as some degree of sex is involved, everyone is suddenly peculiarly interested exploitation. Why is sex treated so differently?

Probably a few reasons, it often involves very vulnerable people, people who were coerced, people who were tricked (we have student jobs for you, hand over your passport though), etc. People are similarly uncomfortable with migrant manual laborers in the ME who are also coerced and tricked, though many do it knowingly because the alternative is worse. Initially trafficked sex workers tend younger than initially inden…

I'd like to hear viewpoints that represent sex workers as having agency, rather than pets or wards to be told what they need.

Why don't we listen to sex workers themselves, when they tell us what policy changes they want? If sex workers say sex work should be criminalized, that would hold some weight for me. If they're exploited, I'd like to hear what they think would actually help them.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#44

Post by tempguy9999 »

criddell wrote: post #36
ldng wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically, maybe it's better than make it illegal, as long as it's Not In My Back Yard ?

Sounds right to me. I'm not sure what it's like in Amsterdam, but most cities in America have zoning laws to regulate what types of businesses can be located in a specific place.

Difference between 'regulate' and 'prevent' certain types of businesses, I guess.

Do any cities have laws which state certain areas are ok for prostitutes to work in? I'd guess not

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#45

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #16

Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on their doorstep. "Like, wouldn't you rather have it be regulated and legal?" Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own doorway. "Like, why are you trying to get rid of all of these poor homeless people?" "What's the big deal, maaaaan?" they ask, "Why do you have a problem with it?" But the second the problem c…

> Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on their doorstep. "Like, wouldn't you rather have it be regulated and legal?"

Sex work does not mean idiots should be idiots. Sex work works just fine in many places and does not make the area super shady if done well.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#46

Post by agumonkey »

naasking wrote: post #21
sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

> Maybe if it was far from the center and if it was done in a way where you would be 100% sure where nobody was exploited, then yes All kinds of low and high paying jobs are exploitative and hardly anybody cares. But as soon as some degree of sex is involved, everyone is suddenly peculiarly interested exploitation. Why is sex treated so differently?

It's a line that is crossed, using your body for money has never ever been seen as something normal. Even accepting the reality of life complexities, broken marriages, loneliness, etc sex as a products is never praised.

The only argument so far is "I should be free to use my body as I will". But probably only a minuscule amount of sex "workers" have the material and emotional comfort to choose that.

So basically when other industries are often exploitative, it's probably a few orders better than prostitution, leverage a bit less immature or broke people.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#47

Post by toasterlovin »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #32

> Everyone is cool from afar with sexwork until a meth head is jerking it on their doorstep You are confusing or conflating sex work with drug use. > Everyone is cool from afar with homeless until they're sleeping in their own doorway I would be ok with that; you don't speak for me. > self-righteously Yeah, sure. None of your post reflects on your self-centredness.

What if a homeless person takes a shit in your door step right in the broad daylight (actual thing that happened at my place of work several years ago). Cool with that as well?

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#48

Post by chimeracoder »

sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

> it exploits these people even if it’s their choice.

This is a talking point used by people who try to criminalize sex work, and it flies completely in the face of what sex workers' advocacy groups around the world actually say. No, you're not equating sex work with sex trafficking in your comment, but you're adopting wholesale the language of people who do.

> But the real issue is that none of the girl prostitutes are locals. Not once I heard of a local Dutch girl doing this. And it’s also mostly lots of people that need he money. If the brothels were full of dutch-rich women then I’d be fine with it.

Why is it a problem when foreigners engage in sex work to make money, but not a problem when "Dutch-rich" people engage in sex work to make money?

You're talking about unionized workers in a highly regulated industry doing very lucrative labor. It's very hard to make the argument that they're being exploited, any more than laborers in any other industry are being exploited.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#49

Post by landryraccoon »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #35

One of my favourite authors is Chris Hedges. I was surprised to discover he is against decriminalisation of sex work. His arguments actually won me over. https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-real-face-of-prostitut... https://www.truthdig.com/articles/prostitution-being-raped-f... https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-underbelly-of-the-sex-...

I'm was unclear on something - is Chris Hedges saying that sex workers should be themselves charged with a criminal offense, or that only pimps should be?

Those blog posts make it out that sex work is a crime against the sex workers; i.e., it is prostitutes that are the victims. If that is indeed the case then prostitutes should be able to go freely to the police for protection, without fear of prosecution, since they are the victims. So that makes it unclear to me what it means that Hedges is against decriminalization.

Re: The Uncertain Fate of Amsterdam’s Red-Light District

#50

Post by briandear »

goobynight wrote: post #19
sktrdie wrote: post #2

I have been living in Amsterdam for about half a year. Met lots of locals. The red light district is not liked. It’s full of trashy people wanting to do drugs and have sex. Sure if you find those to be pleasures of life then be my guest, but the locals hate it: imagine having an entire neighborhood ruined by these kind of people, who let me tell you are not the most respectful kind. But the real issue is that none of…

I don't see why being "trashy" and into drugs+sex has to be relegated to a journey outside the city center. Pearl clutching moralists (not necessarily you) always have a strong voice at this table though. Being interested in these things is no better than raising useless generations of children who, on average, will eventually have MULTIPLE degenerates in the family line. Some jobs are just simply for poor people. I'…

You are suggesting sex work is preferable to Uber? Have you ever been a sex worker? I am as libertarian as it comes, but that false dichotomy is ridiculous. Either get “exploited” by Uber or get a job where men stick their penises in you a dozen times a day.

But at least you aren’t being “exploited” by some filthy VC-funded capitalists right?

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