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Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

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Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#131
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you exclude Western Europeans from your "immigrants" statement, which is what the parent comment was clearly implying, it's not even close to true.

It doesn't seem clear at all that having many different kinds of Western Europeans makes for a "highly homogeneous" culture compared to neighboring countries that generally have only one kind of Western European.

The culture between Italy and France is much closer than Italy and Algeria. For as much difference there is between the countries in Western Europe, there are far more similarities amongst them compared to other continents and larger regions. Counting Italians as "immigrants" is at the very least slightly misleading.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#132
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For those comparing Switzerland to USA, you’re comparing a highly homogeneous culture and highly optimized country to a land full of immigrants gathering in excess of 300 million. Percentage wise, the Swiss have more immigrants, more foreigners and more people with immigrant backgrounds. Not to mention the whole "four official languages" thing.

If you exclude Western Europeans from your "immigrants" statement, which is what the parent comment was clearly implying, it's not even close to true.

If you think Western Europe has some glowing history of harmonious relations, I’ve got news for you. Heck, ask German-speaking Swiss people how they feel about French-speaking Swiss (and vice versa) and you’ll get a quick picture of how things aren’t so rosy.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea I feel like it’s cliche to hate on America these days. For those comparing Switzerland to USA, you’re comparing a highly homogeneous culture and highly optimized country to a land full of immigrants gathering in excess of 300 million. Americans criticize their own country more than anyone else. OP’s post not only misses the fact that Switzerland is not in the EU, but more importantly the spirit of argument is bas…

> you’re comparing a highly homogeneous culture Are you talking about a different Switzerland than everyone else? A country literally made out of three different cultures (French Swiss, German Swiss and Italian Swiss)?

Even apart from the diversity of the natives, Zürich has roughly the same proportion of foreign born residents as San Francisco.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#134
post #35

Call me a cynic, but Europe isn't the USA. There are a lot of countries in EU which have, IMO, better work culture and fairness of negotiation as the guiding philosophies behind the work. If Google did this in the USA, it wouldn't be seen as much. However, they have strong laws against this in EU, and this incident would not portray Google in favorable light, IMO. I also feel that it is high time engineers realized t…

Not all of us want a union

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So here's something I always wonder about when I see arguments that unions aren't necessary at tech companies like Google because the workers are highly compensated and presumably well-treated: if we're all sure that's objectively the case, then why should management fight unionization efforts? Aren't they confident that the union isn't going to come in and say, "Yeah, actually you guys are pretty good, carry on?" If…

>Aren't they confident that the union isn't going to come in and say, "Yeah, actually you guys are pretty good, carry on?" If not, why not? Because the point of a union isn't to do what's fair but to extract maximum benefits for the union. What do they have to lose by NOT pushing for every single possible benefit? >But I'm not convinced that's the real worry. Why? What incentive does a union member have to not vote i…

> >Aren't they confident that the union isn't going to come in and say, "Yeah, actually you guys are pretty good, carry on?" If not, why not?

> Because the point of a union isn't to do what's fair but to extract maximum benefits for the union. What do they have to lose by NOT pushing for every single possible benefit?

By this logic every union pushes for every possible benefit. That doesn't seem to be the reality though (at least in the cases I've read, there are often concessions from both sides of th bargaining table).

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#136

Wouldn't unions at Google be bad. If unions imposed rules guaranteeing seniority benefits/tenure rules that would make it harder for younger workers. I am a fan of unions for blue collar work but unions/labor orgs for higher pay organizations seem to be bad because they prevent foreign workers from entering and they make it harder for young people.

Does Google have older workers? https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2019/07/23/google-set...

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#137
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about Switzerland, but most European countries have laws that explicitly require companies to permit unions to operate on company property. Many countries even mandate that stewards (union representatives) must be allowed to spend part of their working time on union work.

So union stewards get paid by the company to work on union work? Why doesn’t the union pay for that time?

Presumably legislators have seen unions as providing a beneficial counterbalance to corporations, and decided to enact this requirement to ensure that stewards don't get discriminated against because their union work necessarily means they have to interact with other employees outside of actual work tasks.

You know, the kind of thing that lawmakers can do when they're not completely owned by corporate donors and lobbyists.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#138
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m simply stating it’s foolish to expect Google to actively work against their best interests. I think you're indulging in reification here. Google has no best interests because Google is just a legal fiction with no real-world existence apart from its constituent individuals. The investors have their interests. Management has their interests. The workers have their interests. But Google itself has no interests, a…

> Management has no business having an opinion on unionization one way or the other. If anything, most managers should be pro-union since they're as likely to get thrown under the bus to keep profits up as their direct reports. Unionization restricts the management's ability to adapt to new situations and challenges in the pursuit of profit. Shareholders hire and task management to do exactly that, which is why the t…

That sounds like right-wing union-busting propaganda to me. Even if it isn't, why should I care if union representation makes management's job harder? I'm not management.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#139
post #58
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience is that HN often aligns with more Libertarian ideologies in the comment section.

I can't take that claim too seriously, because a real Libertarian would welcome a free, and non-coercive association between employees as much as they welcome the free, and completely non-coercive association between an employee, and their employer... (I am, of course, not at all coerced to work under the conditions my employer sets upon me!) But for some reason, many Libertarians have nothing but contempt for the fo…

Free and non-coercive is the key. Things such as Card Check mean that employees as individuals are able to be coerced to sign the card rather than unionization via secret ballot. Furthermore so-called “closed shops” infringe on an individual’s right to not join the union (or pay required representation fees.)

Free and without coercion is fine, but in union activities in the US, it is rarely, if ever the case.

Also look at how “scabs” are treated by union employees. They are often subjected to violence and threats if they choose to exercise their choice to ignore a strike. That is the opposite of free and without coercion.

And no, you aren’t coerced to work for any employer. You freely accept employment conditions in exchange for the agreed upon wage. However when unions get involved, you don’t have a choice — you get paid whatever the union decides. A “software engineer 3” is paid whatever the rate is for a software engineer 3. You can’t negotiate anything better. And, raises are determined by how long you exist at the job and not necessarily your productivity. Traditional unions were designed around workers that were interchangeable — assembly line type work where worker A and worker B are completely interchangeable: as long as the widget screw gets installed at your spot on the line, the work is done: there is no difference between workers doing the same job because it’s rote. When things like judgement, creativity, and other soft skills come into play, workers are quickly differentiated and don’t necessarily deserve the exact same wage because their output isn’t exactly the same as it would be for an assembly line worker.

Join a union if you want— that doesn’t give the union the right to negotiate on my behalf against my will. Unions are no different than labor monopolies and they should be treated with the same suspicion as we treat other monopolies.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#140
post #35

Call me a cynic, but Europe isn't the USA. There are a lot of countries in EU which have, IMO, better work culture and fairness of negotiation as the guiding philosophies behind the work. If Google did this in the USA, it wouldn't be seen as much. However, they have strong laws against this in EU, and this incident would not portray Google in favorable light, IMO. I also feel that it is high time engineers realized t…

I'd vote for everyone who has a reasonable plan of more scrutiny towards 40 hour work weeks. This may reduce salaries but oh God most of us make too much money anyhow. Let's have a life now! When are you going to enjoy life, after retirement? Would you wait with sex till after retirement, too, if that offered a salary increase?

>but oh God most of us make too much money anyhow

Nope, that's just in the USA, us in Europe not at all.

And I'm not even comparing EU salaries vs US salaries just tech salaries/property prices ratios for each location.

You're not overpaid, it's us that are severely underpaid in comparison.

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