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Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

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Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#121

Post by carlob »

icelancer wrote: post #116
rospaya wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For those comparing Switzerland to USA, you’re comparing a highly homogeneous culture and highly optimized country to a land full of immigrants gathering in excess of 300 million. Percentage wise, the Swiss have more immigrants, more foreigners and more people with immigrant backgrounds. Not to mention the whole "four official languages" thing.

If you exclude Western Europeans from your "immigrants" statement, which is what the parent comment was clearly implying, it's not even close to true.

And while we're at it we can count non-Caucasian Americans as immigrants /s

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#122

Post by icelancer »

shantly wrote: post #40
vowelless wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will likely stifle my salary, and the salaries of a lot of high earning swes. Or not. Curious what others think.

The usual counterexamples are sports player and actors' unions. Even in less glamorous areas, union doesn't always equal salary cap or salary bands or whatever. Usually their main concerns are setting a pay floor and stopping abuse / forcing humane treatment.

> sports player unions

Probably one of the worst examples. The MLBPA is currently the biggest joke regarding negotiating power, and the NFLPA settled a concussion lawsuit where the NFL is lying about player health and got away without admitting guilt about it.

Pro sports unions are inept at battling management and their members are suffering for it - in the case of football, literally dying for it without adequate compensation (if such a thing exists).

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#123

Post by josefx »

briandear wrote: post #86
Zarath wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a trick question in so many ways. Almost every single company in the country pays less than Google. So you could say the same about any non-unionized company too. If unions arose out of poor working conditions then it probably follows that salaries for that work were poor. Just because you make a lot of money, doesn't mean you're not being underpaid or exploited. These software companies aren't some of the mo…

> Just because you make a lot of money, doesn't mean you're not being underpaid or exploited. If you are a Google engineer, you can go work for literally anyone else if you feel you are underpaid and exploited. It isn’t like Google is the only buyer of labor in that market. Some chicken processing plant in Iowa — that might be a different conversation, but this is Google. If you feel you are underpaid, then leave. Go…

> If you are a Google engineer, you can go work for literally anyone else if you feel you are underpaid and exploited.

Must be a recent development if this[1] story is true. It only took a few lawsuits too and far from the first problematic agreement they had to end, so very employee friendly and free market oriented.

[1] https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/google-ends...

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#124

Post by icelancer »

nradov wrote: post #91
shantly wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The usual counterexamples are sports player and actors' unions. Even in less glamorous areas, union doesn't always equal salary cap or salary bands or whatever. Usually their main concerns are setting a pay floor and stopping abuse / forcing humane treatment.

SAG-AFTRA was notoriously silent for years during the #MeToo "casting couch" abuses. The union was apparently cozy with powerful entertainment industry players and did little to protect their members.

This is because the higher up members in SAG-AFTRA were complicit themselves. The management of the union are management themselves, which is what a lot of people seem to miss. Who watches the watchers?

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#125

Post by icelancer »

memmcgee wrote: post #36
vowelless wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will likely stifle my salary, and the salaries of a lot of high earning swes. Or not. Curious what others think.

Why would it though? In every other industry, union workers make much more than non-union workers. And unions don't seem to drag the salaries of other high earners (actors, screenwriters) down.

>> And unions don't seem to drag the salaries of other high earners (actors, screenwriters) down.

This absolutely happens in MLB/MLBPA. Players are not allowed to negotiate most types of incentive-based contracts that would align interests of management and players to give them higher possible pay, amongst other methods of capping pay to improve standards for average professional athletes.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#126

Post by icelancer »

memmcgee wrote: post #41
Kalium wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait until you find out how far the pay of those rich assholes goes when you spread it around! There are good arguments to be made for unionization. That some people make more - sometimes substantially more - isn't always one of them. Certainly trying to stoke anger might not always be the best of all available ways to win over people trying to be thoughtful.

Executive salaries aren't the same thing as the surplus value extracted from your labor. If that was spread equally, each employee would make considerably more.

Surplus value extracted from labor is the literal definition of why you hire employees. If there wasn't surplus value, you wouldn't do it.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#127

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

rospaya wrote: post #98
spectramax wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea I feel like it’s cliche to hate on America these days. For those comparing Switzerland to USA, you’re comparing a highly homogeneous culture and highly optimized country to a land full of immigrants gathering in excess of 300 million. Americans criticize their own country more than anyone else. OP’s post not only misses the fact that Switzerland is not in the EU, but more importantly the spirit of argument is bas…

> For those comparing Switzerland to USA, you’re comparing a highly homogeneous culture and highly optimized country to a land full of immigrants gathering in excess of 300 million. Percentage wise, the Swiss have more immigrants, more foreigners and more people with immigrant backgrounds. Not to mention the whole "four official languages" thing.

... provided they have money.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#128

Post by briandear »

pavlov wrote: post #21
dahdum wrote: post #14

> In the email, Google said it was canceling the meeting because the company prefers to only host events on the topic organized in partnership with Google’s site leadership team. So this was a meeting organized solely by employees, using company property, on the company campus, on a workday, with the only speakers allowed being the union reps? I’m not surprised management would try to cancel that, it sounds like a pr…

I don't know about Switzerland, but most European countries have laws that explicitly require companies to permit unions to operate on company property. Many countries even mandate that stewards (union representatives) must be allowed to spend part of their working time on union work.

So union stewards get paid by the company to work on union work? Why doesn’t the union pay for that time?

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#129

Post by _23sd »

icelancer wrote: post #116
rospaya wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For those comparing Switzerland to USA, you’re comparing a highly homogeneous culture and highly optimized country to a land full of immigrants gathering in excess of 300 million. Percentage wise, the Swiss have more immigrants, more foreigners and more people with immigrant backgrounds. Not to mention the whole "four official languages" thing.

If you exclude Western Europeans from your "immigrants" statement, which is what the parent comment was clearly implying, it's not even close to true.

It doesn't seem clear at all that having many different kinds of Western Europeans makes for a "highly homogeneous" culture compared to neighboring countries that generally have only one kind of Western European.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#130

Post by mrep »

H8crilA wrote: post #104
vkaku wrote: post #35

Call me a cynic, but Europe isn't the USA. There are a lot of countries in EU which have, IMO, better work culture and fairness of negotiation as the guiding philosophies behind the work. If Google did this in the USA, it wouldn't be seen as much. However, they have strong laws against this in EU, and this incident would not portray Google in favorable light, IMO. I also feel that it is high time engineers realized t…

I'd vote for everyone who has a reasonable plan of more scrutiny towards 40 hour work weeks. This may reduce salaries but oh God most of us make too much money anyhow. Let's have a life now! When are you going to enjoy life, after retirement? Would you wait with sex till after retirement, too, if that offered a salary increase?

Is that a startup thing, because i've only worked for the big 5 (GAFAM) and I've always worked 40 hours a week. Add in the way higher comp, and I don't know why anyone outside of founders work at startups.
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