Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich • Hacker News Board

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#111

Post by marcinzm » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #102

briandear wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because you make a lot of money, doesn't mean you're not being underpaid or exploited. If you are a Google engineer, you can go work for literally anyone else if you feel you are underpaid and exploited. It isn’t like Google is the only buyer of labor in that market. Some chicken processing plant in Iowa — that might be a different conversation, but this is Google. If you feel you are underpaid, then leave. Go…

So here's something I always wonder about when I see arguments that unions aren't necessary at tech companies like Google because the workers are highly compensated and presumably well-treated: if we're all sure that's objectively the case, then why should management fight unionization efforts? Aren't they confident that the union isn't going to come in and say, "Yeah, actually you guys are pretty good, carry on?" If…

>Aren't they confident that the union isn't going to come in and say, "Yeah, actually you guys are pretty good, carry on?" If not, why not?

Because the point of a union isn't to do what's fair but to extract maximum benefits for the union. What do they have to lose by NOT pushing for every single possible benefit?

>But I'm not convinced that's the real worry.

Why? What incentive does a union member have to not vote in union leadership that promises to give them more?

That's all fine except unions push for these benefits for existing members equally and only existing members. That leads to pushes for things like seniority based pay, indifference to those who are better at their jobs, certifications, pointless bureaucracy to prevent moving jobs away from the union, etc. Personally, I don't like those things.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#112

Post by Daishiman » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

spectramax wrote: post #80

jeffrallen wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland is not in the EU.

Yea I feel like it’s cliche to hate on America these days. For those comparing Switzerland to USA, you’re comparing a highly homogeneous culture and highly optimized country to a land full of immigrants gathering in excess of 300 million. Americans criticize their own country more than anyone else. OP’s post not only misses the fact that Switzerland is not in the EU, but more importantly the spirit of argument is bas…

20% of the Swiss working population is made of immigrants, plus many more in temporary work contracts.

Swiss cities where most of the economic value is being created are far from homogenous.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#113

Post by dahdum » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

Porthos9K wrote: post #72

dahdum wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hypothetical “real libertarian” would welcome far more than that, and most of it not for the benefit of workers. I’m simply stating it’s foolish to expect Google to actively work against their best interests. To provide material support and a platform for unopposed speech on a viewpoint they actively oppose. There’s nothing stopping these employees from doing this on their own free time and with their own resour…

> I’m simply stating it’s foolish to expect Google to actively work against their best interests. I think you're indulging in reification here. Google has no best interests because Google is just a legal fiction with no real-world existence apart from its constituent individuals. The investors have their interests. Management has their interests. The workers have their interests. But Google itself has no interests, a…

> Management has no business having an opinion on unionization one way or the other. If anything, most managers should be pro-union since they're as likely to get thrown under the bus to keep profits up as their direct reports.

Unionization restricts the management's ability to adapt to new situations and challenges in the pursuit of profit. Shareholders hire and task management to do exactly that, which is why the two are almost always opposed to what is, in effect, tying of their hands.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#114

Post by random59129412 » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

I've been thinking lately that we, as people working in the tech industry, especially in places like London, NY, SF, are in a unique position to self organize in a way no other group of workers is.

We are fortunate enough to live in a period that our skills are extremely sought for, we tend to work and specialize in code bases or technologies specific to a company, but we at any time we can take these skills and move away.~

The atmosphere and the general consensus in most companies tends to be that "no one is irreplaceable" which is true but it doesn't seem to take into account the cost to replace someone: You will need to find the right person, which means that some engineers' time will be spent on interviews, either phone ones or face to face, and not delivering "value" for the company; once you find the right person, you will then need to spend at least an extra month where that person is getting up to speed with "how things work" (paired with another person probably, even more time spent not delivering "value"), plus some more time for that person to actually become productive, and eventually after a few months, get in the position of the person that left.

Now, think in your immediate team, what is your bus factor? How many people would need to leave before it's going to be unsustainable for the feature/project/company to continue?

The usual counter-argument is that "it's easy to leave if you're young, but when you have family, you have to think more than just yourself" and I can totally sympathize with this. But as I said in the beginning, especially if you work for in one of the big hubs, and/or in one of the FAANGs, you could probably be in a new place within a week's time.

We don't need to "unionize" in the traditional term. The companies don't even have to "acknowledge" a union. As long as we keep in mind how fortunate we are to working in tech now, and we are determined to just walk away from places that we are not happy at, they will come to us.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#115

Post by Daishiman » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:56 PM UTC

stvswn wrote: post #90

Zarath wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a trick question in so many ways. Almost every single company in the country pays less than Google. So you could say the same about any non-unionized company too. If unions arose out of poor working conditions then it probably follows that salaries for that work were poor. Just because you make a lot of money, doesn't mean you're not being underpaid or exploited. These software companies aren't some of the mo…

You are attributing the profitability of software companies to what you think is the "underpaying" of its workers? And you think that unionization will lead to higher wages? I'm just trying to understand the argument. If the software industry were to unionize, the union would want to collectively bargain for seniority-based job security rules and other schemes to prevent lower-paid new-hires (people not YET in the un…

> If the software industry were to unionize, the union would want to collectively bargain for seniority-based job security rules and other schemes to prevent lower-paid new-hires (people not YET in the union) from taking work from existing union members. Other versions of this effect come in the form of union-imposed certification schemes in the trades, "tenure" rules in education, seniority precedence in picking hours in healthcare, etc. The net effect is that the experienced and powerful members make it hard for the young to get into the profession.

Wow, I didn't know the Writer's Guild and Actor's Guild in Hollywood had seniority-based positions.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#116

Post by icelancer » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 9:58 PM UTC

rospaya wrote: post #98

spectramax wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea I feel like it’s cliche to hate on America these days. For those comparing Switzerland to USA, you’re comparing a highly homogeneous culture and highly optimized country to a land full of immigrants gathering in excess of 300 million. Americans criticize their own country more than anyone else. OP’s post not only misses the fact that Switzerland is not in the EU, but more importantly the spirit of argument is bas…

> For those comparing Switzerland to USA, you’re comparing a highly homogeneous culture and highly optimized country to a land full of immigrants gathering in excess of 300 million. Percentage wise, the Swiss have more immigrants, more foreigners and more people with immigrant backgrounds. Not to mention the whole "four official languages" thing.

If you exclude Western Europeans from your "immigrants" statement, which is what the parent comment was clearly implying, it's not even close to true.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#117

Post by nolok » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 10:03 PM UTC

H8crilA wrote: post #104

vkaku wrote: post #35

Call me a cynic, but Europe isn't the USA. There are a lot of countries in EU which have, IMO, better work culture and fairness of negotiation as the guiding philosophies behind the work. If Google did this in the USA, it wouldn't be seen as much. However, they have strong laws against this in EU, and this incident would not portray Google in favorable light, IMO. I also feel that it is high time engineers realized t…

I'd vote for everyone who has a reasonable plan of more scrutiny towards 40 hour work weeks. This may reduce salaries but oh God most of us make too much money anyhow. Let's have a life now! When are you going to enjoy life, after retirement? Would you wait with sex till after retirement, too, if that offered a salary increase?

This sounds crazy to me. If you're a funder / owner, sure, you don't count hours and it can get crazy. But if you're an employee... Most of my hires now are 30 hours a week, a few at 35h. I don't have anyone at 39h anymore, although that was still the norm a few years ago. Paid stayed the same, just reduced the hours. People are just way more productive that way, and they have two half day free on top of the normal Saturday Sunday.

Probably doesn't work for all position, and in fact the worse the job the more likely it doesn't work for it, but uh yeah you can totally reduce to 40h...

(France, 35h is the legal work time for a full time contract here, but you can absolutely have a contract with more or less hours, you just pay extra social charges for hours above the 35th)

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#118

Post by geggam » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 10:04 PM UTC

random59129412 wrote: post #114

I've been thinking lately that we, as people working in the tech industry, especially in places like London, NY, SF, are in a unique position to self organize in a way no other group of workers is. We are fortunate enough to live in a period that our skills are extremely sought for, we tend to work and specialize in code bases or technologies specific to a company, but we at any time we can take these skills and move…

Until you compare your salary and expenses to that of someone who was working blue collar 40 years ago.

My dad made enough to support a family of four as an appliance repair man. He got a new car every so often, built a shop and had a home mostly paid for and we went on vacations. Going to the doctor wasnt a big deal and no one worried about being bankrupt from a hospital stay/

I am supporting a family of four and we get by. My car is 18 years old with 260k miles on it and I am hoping to get another 3-4 years out of it so the kids finish college. (community college, I am not rich and cannot afford anything else). The family is one major medical incident away from bankruptcy and I have good insurance

You tell me how good you have it and I will reply that is because you dont know how good it could be.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#119

Post by UncleMeat » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 10:05 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #76

SomeOtherThrow wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wait until you find out how far the pay of those rich assholes goes when you spread it around! Like by raising wages? How else would you spread it around? > That some people make more - sometimes substantially more - isn't always one of them. Read marx. Or chomsky.

Yes, like raising wages. Big piles of money tend to turn into surprisingly small ones when spread out across big piles of people. You'll have to pardon me if I'm reluctant to take my economics lessons from a linguist.

Google's annual profit is something like 100,000 dollars per employee. Not exactly a small pile.

Re: Google attempted to shut down a unionization meeting in Zurich

#120

Post by icelancer » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 10:05 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #33

vowelless wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will likely stifle my salary, and the salaries of a lot of high earning swes. Or not. Curious what others think.

Since when did unions stifle salaries? They generally get higher salaries for their employees, no? Isn't the typical complaint about union workers that they're "overpaid"?

> They generally get higher salaries for their employees, no?

Unions typically (almost always) bargain to improve the compensation of the average employee. Outlier events are flattened by definition, meaning it is harder to be fired, and harder to make outlier money.