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California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

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Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#351

Post by alistairSH »

jumpingmice wrote: post #19
socalnate1 wrote: post #3

My high school started at 7am. I also took the bus; which picked up around 6:15am; so I usually woke up around 5:45am during the week. I would often nod off during my first or second period; and routinely took 2-3 hour naps when I got home from school; which screwed up my ability to fall asleep early at night or get much homework done. I sometimes wonder what my academics would have been like if I was actually awake…

I don’t get how this is supposed to work with sports and other activities. In high school I had water polo/swimming practice mornings at 6:15. Is that now illegal?

As noted, it's not illegal.

But, you could also move practice to the afternoon like most school sports. None of my high school's athletic programs were before class.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#352

Post by llampx »

non-entity wrote: post #5
socalnate1 wrote: post #3

My high school started at 7am. I also took the bus; which picked up around 6:15am; so I usually woke up around 5:45am during the week. I would often nod off during my first or second period; and routinely took 2-3 hour naps when I got home from school; which screwed up my ability to fall asleep early at night or get much homework done. I sometimes wonder what my academics would have been like if I was actually awake…

I've always been confused by TV shows showing kids leaving for school and it's bright outside with the whole family awake. Growing up, it was dark when we got up for school and just barely sun up (depending on the season still dark) by the time we left to get on the bus.

Suspension of disbelief. I live in Germany, and every movie and most shows take place during the summer when it's sunny and the characters are not wearing a jacket even in the evening.

That kind of weather is seen for a few days in July and August, current anomalous weather notwithstanding.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#353

Post by llampx »

hamandcheese wrote: post #253
shantly wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In high school, they're based around having time after school for sports practice and other extracurriculars, mostly, from what I understand (I know a lot of K-12 teachers). That's why so many districts still make elementary schools start like 2hrs after those kids are wide awake and already having some of their best hours of the day, while the high schools start before the damn sun's up for about half the school yea…

Why don’t they just shorten the duration of school? Why does a senior in high school need 7 hours of classes 5 days a week, but one summer later only need 4-5 hours of classes 3 times a week as a freshman in college?

Specialization in college/university?

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#354

Post by thanatropism »

irrational wrote: post #340
shakna wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have all 3 classes of students going to school at the same time, your bus costs are going to be 3 times as high. It doesn't matter if it's public or private, that's just how it works. In Australia, it is also normal that all 3 classes of students also start at around the same time. (8:45-9:00am). This doesn't seem to be a problem that the public transit system seems incapable of handling.

What is a public transit system? What a quaint idea. Seriously though, public transit is such a joke in most parts of the USA (especially the rural areas) that this is basically a non-starter. I live in a part of the country that does have a pretty good public transit system, I just checked on taking public transit from my neighborhood to my son's high school and discovered that it's not possible. There is no public…

People say "flyover country" as metonymy of the two different realities that are both called "USA", but "transit country" and "SUV country" may be better images.

Outside the USA, 80% of what we see on TV shows is NYC. Sometimes I have this acute FOMO that I should be miserably scraping by in NYC just to be in the Navel of the World. It's just a mindfuck to us unamericans how big the US really is and how empty and boring.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#355

Post by greedo »

shantly wrote: post #155
unqueued wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had similar experiences. I and many other students would sleep in our winter coats on the morning bus ride, and it was hard to focus until about 10AM. I strongly suspect that school hours are based around parents work hours, even if that is not what they say.

In high school, they're based around having time after school for sports practice and other extracurriculars, mostly, from what I understand (I know a lot of K-12 teachers). That's why so many districts still make elementary schools start like 2hrs after those kids are wide awake and already having some of their best hours of the day, while the high schools start before the damn sun's up for about half the school yea…

Our district solved that probably entirely by discontinuing bus service for all except special needs students. Kids can walk, or be driven by their parents. The district has partnered with the metro transit to provide dedicated buses on some routes, but only up til 8th grade. After that, you're on your own. Yet our property taxes are just as high as most districts...

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#356

Post by sprague »

gundmc wrote: post #212
_coveredInBees wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the frustration, but I think it is absurd to expect teachers and school administrators (who are woefully underpaid, especially in the Bay area) to accommodate working parents by working extra hours just for the parent's benefit. It's a hard enough job as it is, what with the poor pay, large workload, dealing with entitled, helicopter parents and the diminishing societal appreciation for their contributio…

I'm not saying teachers don't deserve to be paid more, but I was surprised to see how much Bay Area teachers make. It's public info for public schools.[1] In Santa Clara County, with no experience, starting salary is $71000. It increases on a schedule each year up to over $131000. Honestly, the job security, structured pay, and 3 months vacation per year is a pretty darn good deal. [1] - https://www.santaclarausd.org…

Also, for a married couple raising a family, it's hard to beat a job that, by definition, coincides with the kids' schedule. If one spouse has a decent full-time job, the additional income from teaching is almost incidental compared to the flexibility of working the same hours and location as the kids.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#357

Post by ThomPete »

dragonwriter wrote: post #331
ThomPete wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will first have to teach you the difference between taking part in a sentence out its full context and then actually being intellectually honest and not just strawman them. One of the first things I taught them. A school network applied to all of New York state is hardly an anecdote and it's frankly telling how quick you and others where to jump onto that idea. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomen…

> A school network applied to all of New York state is hardly an anecdote Maybe another thing your top performing students in their top performing school network can explain to you is the difference between evidence and irrelevancy; specifically, that, with California being the first state to mandate a later start time, its unusual for schools to start later (New York is experimenting with some later start times, but…

18% of new york schools have a start time later than 8.30 a huge number have between 8 and 8.30, SA starts at 7:45 yet dominates the best performing elementary school.

If you can't see the relevance then perhaps my boys should teach you about statistical significance you are clearly confusing it with arrogance.

We are talking about 2400 elementary schools and SA being in the top 30 dominating almost every position there.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#358

Post by ThomPete »

eitally wrote: post #326
ThomPete wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will first have to teach you the difference between taking part in a sentence out its full context and then actually being intellectually honest and not just strawman them. One of the first things I taught them. A school network applied to all of New York state is hardly an anecdote and it's frankly telling how quick you and others where to jump onto that idea. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomen…

Look, when I was in high school we had our first period starting at 7:07am, and the school overall was released at 2:15pm. Plenty of kids, myself included, performed just fine. But, that doesn't mean it's physiologically optimal, and it also doesn't mean it's practical for families to get kids in bed at an appropriate time. Anecdotally, I know lots of families whose middle schoolers are regularly up until 10-11pm doi…

Go back and read what I was responding to. I was responding to a claim that you are not awake at 8 to which I responded that depends on when you put your kids to sleep.

I wasn't even introducing the idea of performance. I was responding to a blanket claim about performance with a rather non-anecdotal example of SA schools dominating the performance list yet having one of the earliest times of school attendance. If you haven't seen it click on the link and if that doesn't convince you that it's more than anecdotal then I just don't know what will.

All the studies is fundamentally about sleeping time NOT about at which hour it's optimal to be in school which is exactly my point yet somehow it gets completely ignored and everyone just yells anecdotal.

It's not anecdotal it's statistical with a sample of more than 2000 schools and SA dominating almost all the top 30 results and that with schools that have a majority of black and hispanic kids.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#359

Post by ThomPete »

eitally wrote: post #327
ThomPete wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I read it: 1) The study doesn't conclude what the parent was claiming and what you seem to think it's claiming. 2) It's only for high school students and its sample is pretty small. 3) It actually supports my point of enough sleep more than anything else which seems to be completely ignored of course. 4) Here is my evidence https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-po... my sons are Success Ac…

I think arguing isn't worth the effort. The fact is, it's easier for the state to set start times later than it is for millions of parents to get their kids to bed on time (for all sorts of reasons).

Well but that's a very different discussion and not the one I was originally engaging in.

But claims of anecdotal evidence are simply factually wrong.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#360

Post by ThomPete »

jameshart wrote: post #320
ThomPete wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does when it results are compared to the entire new york state and its consistently in the top.

What’s your control? Do other schools in or out of the top 3% have earlier or later start times? How do you account for confounds like socioeconomics and demographics? If you don’t, what you have is an anecdote, not evidence. Others are pointing you to studies that look at real data and apply statistical rigor. You are arguing that your knowledge of a single example outweighs that evidence. That is precisely what peo…

17.3% of schools in New York start later than 8.30, the majority starts between 8-8.30 SA starts at 7.45 yet they dominate the Top 30 out of a sample of 2400 schools.

I can live with that as a significant sample size and control group ESPECIALLY since I never said that the earlier you are up the better but simply that it's not a problem if you get early enough to sleep.

The study you refer to compares 2, TWO schools and doesn't come to any conclusion that contradicts mine in fact it support it. More sleep means better performance most of all.

But sure keep on claiming I am the one who is making anecdotal claims.

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