California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am • Hacker News Board

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#321

Post by dangerface » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 12:48 PM UTC

_coveredInBees wrote: post #134

meristem wrote: post #34

Unfortunately, the school systems still rely on one parent at home. It is not just drop off and pick up times: school activities, parent-teacher conferences, etc. For example, in the SF Unified District, school tours for parents of kids entering kindergarten, middle school and high school are during the school hours, mostly in the morning. It is all built around the expectation of a parent at home or a job structure…

I understand the frustration, but I think it is absurd to expect teachers and school administrators (who are woefully underpaid, especially in the Bay area) to accommodate working parents by working extra hours just for the parent's benefit. It's a hard enough job as it is, what with the poor pay, large workload, dealing with entitled, helicopter parents and the diminishing societal appreciation for their contributio…

School is publicly funded child care, thats how it started and it hasn't changed since inception. School needs to cater to working parents better since thats its whole point.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#322

Post by dsfyu404ed » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 12:49 PM UTC

Hermitian909 wrote: post #139

lonelappde wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are claiming that poor parents will changed their school choice based on the availability of parent-teacher conferences? And that the problem of poverty is overemployment, not underemployment?

So the following is a true story: In a district in the bay area, one of the elementary schools was given a certain special designation that allowed them to accept kids from the district by lottery. The condition of entering the lottery was as follows: 1. A parent must take a 2 hour tour of the school, tour times were between 9 am and 3 pm. 2. A parent must sign an agreement to volunteer at the school at least 3 days…

>Number 2 was unenforceable, and many flouted it, but poorer (mostly non-white) families who actually managed to schedule the tour generally backed out upon hearing that requirement.

I'd like to see how that requirement would work on the rural poor. I have a suspicion they are far more acquainted with the difference between making a rule and enforcing a rule.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#323

Post by eitally » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 12:52 PM UTC

bobthecowboy wrote: post #231

jclulow wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of benefits to uniforms. In NSW (Australia) public schools have uniforms, and parents pay for them. Low income families are generally able to obtain financial assistance through some grant, or fundraising programme; sometimes through donated uniforms. Uniforms actually help with socio-economic gaps: everybody dresses the same, regardless of whether you can afford more expensive status symbol clothing o…

I'm not super knowledgeable on the topic of uniforms, but don't other things just become the status symbol? Phones, laptops, cars, purses? A lot of these things already have premium brands that most people on this site could name trivially.

I mean yes, but you don't even need to make that leap. Just look at outwear, shoes, and clothing accessories.

fwiw, I'm also a big fan of uniforms and the uniform separates can typically be purchased at places like Old Navy or Target for <$10/item (compared to my kid's soccer uniforms, which run $300-400 for the kit and have to be refreshed every year).

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#324

Post by astura » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 12:55 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #117

pbreit wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8am or later start probably has more to do with kids being sufficiently awake, an important state when attending school.

Kids put properly to bed at proper time is more than fresh at 7. Thats the least of the problems here.

In elementary school I had an 8:00pm sharp bed time, which most people would consider "proper time." It was still extremely difficult waking up for a 7am start to the school day. I believe an extra hour of sleep would have made my life better.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#325

Post by udkl » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 12:59 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #305

> " one-quarter will need to wait an additional 31 to 60 minutes to get going." So one quarter of Californian schools were starting between 7 and 7:30? I'm surprised there haven't been revolts in the streets about that. That's completely ridiculous. Apparently this is to accommodate parents who need to leave for work at ridiculously early hours, but if you want to accommodate parents, why only those, and not the pare…

> why not take your kids to pre-school care?

That’s a very privileged view. I would imagine most of the country cannot afford any sort of paid external care.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#326

Post by eitally » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 1:05 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #309

dragonwriter wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I dont know what you mean with better, my two sons are top performers in their school and ... presumably they, then, can explain to you the difference between anecdote and data.

They will first have to teach you the difference between taking part in a sentence out its full context and then actually being intellectually honest and not just strawman them. One of the first things I taught them. A school network applied to all of New York state is hardly an anecdote and it's frankly telling how quick you and others where to jump onto that idea. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomen…

Look, when I was in high school we had our first period starting at 7:07am, and the school overall was released at 2:15pm. Plenty of kids, myself included, performed just fine. But, that doesn't mean it's physiologically optimal, and it also doesn't mean it's practical for families to get kids in bed at an appropriate time. Anecdotally, I know lots of families whose middle schoolers are regularly up until 10-11pm doing homework. This is particularly true for those kids participating in time-consuming extra-curriculars.

It's probably physiologically accurate that later start times are better for children. This bill is research-backed. It also makes things harder for parents who will then need to find long before-care options or start their own commutes later.

Also anecdotally, I have two children in elementary school, who also play competitive soccer with training 4 days/wk. Soccer is typically 1.5hr at a time, and either 4:30-6pm or 5-6:30pm. Training fields are 15-20min drive from our house. School gets out at 2:15, but we have to pick up our 2yo from daycare before the older ones get home (no bussing service because we're This is an anecdote about an 8 & 10 year old in the bay area, and we have excellent work situations (I work for a flexible tech company, and my wife works a shifted schedule from home). If we both worked traditional 8-5 schedules, the majority of what our kids are able to do now would not be possible: they'd go to YMCA before care on campus around 7am and then to aftercare until 5:30pm. Sports would be out of the question unless we made arrangements with friends. There would be no decompression time after school and before home/family/activity time.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#327

Post by eitally » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 1:07 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #300

cosmotron wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is NPR's article on it: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/12/12/6761187... Here is the journal article referenced: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/12/eaau6200 Here is the CDC's summary referencing further studies: https://www.cdc.gov/features/school-start-times/index.html

Thanks, I read it: 1) The study doesn't conclude what the parent was claiming and what you seem to think it's claiming. 2) It's only for high school students and its sample is pretty small. 3) It actually supports my point of enough sleep more than anything else which seems to be completely ignored of course. 4) Here is my evidence https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-po... my sons are Success Ac…

I think arguing isn't worth the effort. The fact is, it's easier for the state to set start times later than it is for millions of parents to get their kids to bed on time (for all sorts of reasons).

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#328

Post by eitally » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 1:12 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #314

indecisive_user wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So no sports or after school clubs? 8pm bedtime is great with no other obligations, but I was regularly at school events past then (lacrosse games, robotics, quiz bowl, etc.), so that schedule would have prevented me from doing a lot of things I enjoyed in high school

The youngest at 6 has Chess 3 times a week and soccer 3 times a week. The oldest has soccer 3 times a week and is not home until 7 in the evening. They also have homework. So they have plenty of obligations we are just very strict with when they go to bed which means that in general we don't have an issue with getting them to sleep.

How do you handle the family logistics that facilitate going to bed by 8pm?

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#329

Post by eitally » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 1:16 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #55

Wonderful. Now can we pay attention to all of the research saying that homework creates stress but doesn't work, and have schools stop assigning so much? More precisely, the research shows that homework done right helps, done wrong hurts, and the result is that more homework increases the correlation between parent's socioeconomic status and student performance. But on average is approximately net neutral for learnin…

Our district has a new policy this year for primary school: no project work at home (This was historically a HUGE time sync), and no at-home writing assignments. Typically, this means homework is whatever math the kids didn't finish in math class. It has been a HUGE benefit vis-a-vis family time and overall stress. Our oldest, now in 5th grade, had a similar experience to another commenter in grades K-4, where he had multiple hours/wk of work, plus writing assignments and periodic projects. So hard on everybody, with extremely limited ROI.

Re: California’s new law bans schools from starting before 8am

#330

Post by astura » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 1:16 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #149

PeterisP wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If school starts at 7:30, then that kid isn't waking up fresh at 7, they have to be woken up significantly earlier. I shudder to think of the other examples in the comments which have to already be in school at 7.

If kids get to bed around 8pm they will normally be up at around 6-6.30 plenty of time for most to get ready. But sure if they are put to bed at 9-10 then its going to be tougher.

No, I went to bed at 8pm sharp every night in elementary school and I was never, ever up at 6-6:30am naturally! It was a struggle to get to school for a 7am start time.

Depending on the school district 7am start times means busses are going to start their pickups much earlier, sometimes as early as 6am for some students.