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Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

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Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#591
post #524

Ben Thompson of Stratechery talks about this a lot. Apple always says they want to own the most important pieces of their products but then Tim Cook when he was COO made the decision to be completely beholden to China for their manufacturing. I hope that Apple is seriously trying to diversify their supply chain out of China. It can be done at scale - Samsung moved all of their manufacturing out of Chins.

China is a big growing market and the CCP cleverly share a huge piece of the pie with Western companies. Western Democracies are growth addict and China is their dealer. Another "problem" is that despite its corruption and autocracy, the CCP still manages to make life better for the average Chinese. On the street it is not a hopeless hell, so right now giving up some of their freedom looks like a good deal to them. S…

> right now giving up some of their freedom looks like a good deal to them.

Getting that freedom back once the deal sours will be very hard, and get much harder each year as surveillance and repression grow.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#592
1- EU can tell Facebook to remove posts WORLDWIDE due to a politician's hurt feelings. 2- Blizzard bans you for speaking your mind. 3- Apple removes apps that support your right to freedom.

...I'm waiting for when we cross the line into "fuck this, something needs to change" because, for me, that was 3 actions ago.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#593
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 23 countries Canada, USA, Mexico, what are the other 20?

USA Canada Mexico Guatemala Belize Honduras El Salvador Nicaragua Costa Rica Panama Bahamas Cuba Jamaica Haiti Dominican Rep. St. Kits and Nevis Antigua and Barbuda Dominica Saint Lucia Barbados St. Vincent and the Grenadines Grenada Trinidad and Tobago

I think some of those countries are usually referred to as Central America.

From Wikipedia's article on Central America:

"Central America consists of seven countries: Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and Panama."

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patriotism. A noble trait that everyone should possess and covet.

Unclear if you’re sarcastic or not. At least in North American high schools we are taught pretty thoroughly that Nationalism was the root cause of both WW1 and WW2. I’m Canadian and while we are proud to be Canadian, Nationalism is looked at very skeptically and Nationalism for its own sake would make me think the person preaching it is uneducated.

Patriotism isn't nationalism.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China, like every single country in the world, does not have an inherent "core". All its territory was acquired by war, expansion, colonization, and settling. China simply has a couple thousand year head start on the new world.

And if we go far enough in the past no current country even existed... That's true, and that also completely irrelevant, and may even be disingenuous rhetoric.

No, it is disingenuous to say that China has some inherent claim on places like Tibet because they may have occupied it at some point in the past. China's borders, like most countries, have changed over time and doesn't validate any present day claim.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm as sympathetic to the protests as anyone and I'm definitely not used to defending Apple's behavior, but are we sure that this is spin? Undoubtedly the app is being used for more than just "ambushing and attacking police". But absent a firm belief that this reason from the Chinese government is bullshit, it's actually a pretty tall order (and questionably ethical) for a corporation to push back against a govt dema…

The point is the app is not being used for ambushing and attacking police at all, because there have been no such ambushes in Hong Kong. The few situations where Hong Kong police have been in danger have come when a small group splits off and is isolated during a protest. In no case have protesters caught the police unawares in an ambush, let alone off-duty police. By its nature, the app shows large concentrations of…

> The point is the app is not being used for ambushing and attacking police at all, because there have been no such ambushes in Hong Kong.

> In no case have protesters caught the police unawares in an ambush, let alone off-duty police.

Right, this is what my questions were conditioned on. It's hard to get a complete picture of what's going on in situations like this when the government is so famously fond of misinformation and control of the press, but there's at least claims out there [1] that this has happened, along with plenty more examples of more general violence from sources that are not credibly controlled by China.

I don't pretend to know that this claim is true, but it's surprising to me that you are so confident that no such incidents have happened, even in the face of (even possibly false) news reports that it has happened.

More importantly, you're free to make whatever wild guesses that the official story is a lie in a way that Apple perhaps isn't: if the reports of ambushes are even somewhat credible, it's not clear to me how they could push back against a gov't claiming that an app is facilitating attacks on police.

Note that I'm not saying that their hands are definitely tied here, my model of this isn't high-confidence and I'd personally be opposed to the takedown of a communications app in most situations (including this one). I'm just trying to reconcile the reactions here to the norms we currently have around corporations' power relative to gov't.

> or to any example of it being misused in the way the statement alleges.

This is fair; I am filling in the blanks with assumptions a little here: namely, that Apple's statement reflects the pretext of the govt's demand for removal. I also figure that isolated incidents of violence are far from difficult to come by in riots as intense as the ones in question (the Wikipedia page for the protests has a handful of examples). But it seems to me that this context in, say, the US, would be such that Apple would be criticized for refusal to remove the app, with plenty of takes about how irresponsible the decision is (it certainly stands on firmer ground than the new consensus that eg platforms are responsible for cracking down on "hate speech"). The difference here seems to be the legitimacy people grant to the gov't being resisted, and it's again not clear to me that that's a call that a company like Apple could or should be making (beyond broad decisions like whether or not to operate in the country).

Thanks for the thoughtful response by the way: my comment doesn't have a strong position but is exploring some nuance I have questions about, and I know HN isn't really the forum for posting anything but the kinds of neatly-wrapped takes that can be swallowed (or rejected) whole by simpletons. It's always nice to get some engagement with the content of the comment instead of the usual mindless pattern-matching + upvote/downvote that most here are limited to.

[1] https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/30...

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#597
This is why Apple will always be a second-class citizen to Android.

If I have a good reason, I can toggle a setting and install APKs built by anyone. If I have a good reason, I can wipe my phone and unlock the bootloader to literally replace and de-Google the entire OS.

When I buy a phone, it's a hardware product I'm buying. Just like when you buy a PC/laptop, what you run on it is your business, not the manufacturers. It's certain nice that Dell pre-loads Windows 10 on their laptops, but if I want to run Linux, I can.

>but I want my phone to just work

You also have the freedom to stay in the walled garden. The difference is you have to option to run different software if you so choose, and having that freedom is so much more important to me than how slick the UI is or how good the ecosystem is.

I don't own any Apple products, although I was strongly considering switching to iPhone a few years back. These recent developments confirm that I definitely made the right choice staying with Android.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#598
post #315

Here we go again... Let me explain how Chinese people think about HK, since none of them ever seem to explain it on a site like this. Imagine you are a middle class American. Maybe you are but if not, just imagine, tech city on the east or west coast. You're pretty invested in being an American, skin in the game, manifest destiny etc. Very good. They call this tianxia by the way, basically Chinese manifest destiny. L…

> You're pretty invested in being an American, skin in the game, manifest destiny etc. Huh? You just described maybe 1 in 10 Americans. We genuinely do not care about "manifest destiny" and many of us don't put much value in being American either. I'm not even sure what you mean by "skin in the game" > Let's say one day some stupid little state that you don't care about and vaguely resent decides it wants to secede,…

That’s the big difference between the west and mainland China. We are used to criticize the government in the west, nationalism is just normal in mainland China.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#599

It helps to know a little bit about what's been going on in Hong Kong, before you all decide to line up and take your daily dump on China. It all started a few months ago when someone committed a crime in Taiwan and fled to Hong Kong. To prevent HK from becoming a safe haven for criminals, the Chief Executive of HK proposed a new law to facilitate extradition of these crime suspects from HK to various jurisdictions i…

Thanks for trying to educate the mass in a factual manner, and I'd like to apologize for others for voting you down. Unfortunately many of HN are fueled currently by a righteous sense of nationalism and words outside the context of the media cannot be easily consumed at the moment. It's absolutely similar in Chinese forums though as we are through an era that has the easiest path towards a propaganda for a collective…

Thanks, I really appreciate that.

It's amazing is it?

Censorship is of course bad, unless they are the ones doing the censoring, then of course it's the right thing to do.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA Canada Mexico Guatemala Belize Honduras El Salvador Nicaragua Costa Rica Panama Bahamas Cuba Jamaica Haiti Dominican Rep. St. Kits and Nevis Antigua and Barbuda Dominica Saint Lucia Barbados St. Vincent and the Grenadines Grenada Trinidad and Tobago

I think some of those countries are usually referred to as Central America. From Wikipedia's article on Central America: "Central America consists of seven countries: Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and Panama."

There are 7 continents: Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Europe, and Australia. Central America and the Caribbean are regions of North America.
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