211–220 of 424 posts
Some of the responses to this article showcase opinions that I see a lot on Hacker News and which make it really hard to be on this site as a trans person sometimes. There’s a lot of attention being paid to the people who resigned, or whose moderator status was revoked—and how accommodating they may or may not have been—but it seems like very little of them are focusing on the people who this preferred pronoun policy…
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I'm gonna wade in hip-deep here and suggest that, given the size of the transgender community, the heat and hype of these issues are completely unwarranted. No hate towards anyone and I'll call anyone whatever they want as far as pronouns. But why is this a top-3 culture war issue? For a bunch of combatants who are overwhelmingly not trans and shouldn't really care? We need to think of a way to rise above without thr…
This is a top-3 culture war issue because it gives a perfect wedge. Gay marriage is lost as that issue, that was the next one theofascists latched on. (It's the same reason state legislatures are so very much concerned with gendered bathrooms these days) It is deliberately stoked time and again because it specifically fires up a large conservative base, and is life-threatening to a small group. As a bonus point for t…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm gonna wade in hip-deep here and suggest that, given the size of the transgender community, the heat and hype of these issues are completely unwarranted. No hate towards anyone and I'll call anyone whatever they want as far as pronouns. But why is this a top-3 culture war issue? For a bunch of combatants who are overwhelmingly not trans and shouldn't really care? We need to think of a way to rise above without thr…
This is a top-3 culture war issue because it gives a perfect wedge. Gay marriage is lost as that issue, that was the next one theofascists latched on. (It's the same reason state legislatures are so very much concerned with gendered bathrooms these days) It is deliberately stoked time and again because it specifically fires up a large conservative base, and is life-threatening to a small group. As a bonus point for t…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Just be nice to people. For fuck's sake.
> Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Because aggressive misgendering including by refusal to use the subject’s preferred pronouns is currently a significant form of harassment which is actively promoted by certain groups. > Just be nice to people. The fact that people aggressively refuse to do that is exactly what pronoun policies are responding to.
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Yes, mywittyname & effingwewt -- I obviously sympathize. It's hard to believe that we are destroying the planet, we are still killing each other over tribal-like issues, people don't have access to clean water and sanitation, various groups are disadvantaged based on where they are born, etc. -- and what pronoun to use for a third party on a technical forum is what we're spending our energy on. We need a new gender-n…
There are people committing suicide, being harassed and not being accepted as they are so using wrong gender is pretty fucked up thing to do especially because it is so easy to do right.
Using a language normally doesn't cause problems for healthy human beings.
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Yes! I absolutely can refuse to use someone's "preferred pronoun." I summarily reject your assertion that using the gender neutral and grammatically correct "they" in place of "he"/"she" (not them) to refer to anyone is ever insulting or demeaning. You can say it's insulting and I just don't agree that is true in general. Yelling loudly and with outrage doesn't make your claim stronger than mine. I am not rejecting a…
As you said, race, religions, genders and so on are all about identity. And people are defined by their identities. If you know the person you're talking about is a cisgender woman, using the gender-neutral pronoun will feel insulting, because by assuming she may or may not be a woman, you look like you're not accepting her as a woman. It gets yet more offending if you're doing this for a transitioning person. The ch…
Listen to yourself. Repeat that sentence to yourself slowly. "Assuming she may or may not be a woman..." Why, yes, I assume everyone I talk to may or may not be a woman!! And there is where everything you say falls apart. It does not follow that I am not accepting "her as a woman" simply because I assume they are human (which is essentially what "may or may not be a woman" encompasses).
Also, everyday I refer to people as "they" without even thinking about it. I have never heard anyone feeling insulted by that outside of these "woke" mobs on the internet. This "think of the cisgenders" argument does not hold water. Most people, trans or not do not go nuts if you simply use a neutral word.
I have probably said "They left the keys on the table" or similar when referring to my own damn best friend ("he"/"him") and wife (a very clearly "she"/"her"). Why do you think I'm going more out of my way for someone that is attention seeking.
> Finally, it all boils down to what it costs you not using the preferred pronoun of someone, when you know it. What are you winning for doing this? What's the expected outcome of this "active and voluntary refusal" for you?
I answered that. The refusal to engage on a topic that is not germane to a discussion. I don't mention your race, likewise I don't mention your gender. It does cost me something, having to keep track of this additional piece of information. If I am on a first name basis with you, I'll use that and I'll probably use your preferred pronouns, or I might use "they" like I do for my own wife and friends all the fucking time.
> It gets yet more offending if you're doing this for a transitioning person. The change of pronoun is their first way to make their transition known, well before having expensive surgery or getting a court order for having their name changed. Refusing the use of their preferred pronoun means you don't accept their transition nor their new gender.
It is not the world's burden to acknowledge a trans persons gender change hardships. You can still have meaningful, respectful conversation and relationships with people without acknowledging all their life troubles. All sorts of people are marginalized or have terrible hardships. I don't refer to AIDS patients as "HAARTs-men" either (those drugs are expensive too), and I haven't been asked to lately. Trans people often need a support system - friends, family, professional caretakers. Expecting everyone they deal with/society to use language in a very regimented and new way is immature and inappropriate.
Again, it doesn't follow that not using "preferred pronouns" and just using "they" or "them" means I don't accept their new gender, it just means that it is not something I care to discuss.
> I don't think you assume all people you encounter on HN are bald and blind just because you don't know the color of their hair or their eyes. Why would you be so adamant doing this specifically for their gender?
You have totally lost me. I don't refer to people as bald or blind. Likewise I don't refer to gender either most of the time.
Edit: oh I get it... you seem to be equating blindness with unspecified eye color and baldness with unspecified hair color, is that right? That’s nonsense. This took me a while because it is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Blindness, eye color? Where to begin with that one?
> You could be as insulting when talking about ethnicity or religion, in some way. But gender is special because it finds its way in every conversation at some point. Pronouns are used everywhere and every time, you cannot escape it.
No it doesn't. It doesn't have to any more than ethnicity or religion. I agree, it can. It can be used by people like you to drive wedges into productive discourse and make trouble. But you can escape it if you want, just use a neutral pronouns.
What do you say about languages like spoken Chinese that don't even have gendered pronouns?
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Might I suggest that most people who insist on using pronouns derived from one's biological sex (rather than gender) are not attempting to engage in harassment, but are simply refusing to concede a currently unsettled political and societal question?
Whether one think it's valid or not, people are hurt and suffer from the actions you suggest. Even if no harm is intended, harm is actively being done. At the same time, there is a limit to the linguistic, religious and/or philosophical concessions that pronoun users can reasonably make. It appears to me that that there is not always a middle ground that satisfies both sides. I (as someone who has no horse in this ra…
Pronouns are no different - if you want me to refer to you as her, and I don't, then you and I will have a problem, not you, me, the mods, my boss, the government, etc.
> The ideological high horse isn't very high if one knowingly goes about hurting people to stay on it.
I have heard this time and time again. If misgendering someone is hurting them in any way, I'm suspecting the solution is for that person to disengage from society, not for society to cater to that person's needs, because they will be misgendered day in and day out for the rest of their life. If someone believes they are being gangstalked, society doesn't modify itself to ensure no one within 500 meters of them has a predictable schedule.
Some of the responses to this article showcase opinions that I see a lot on Hacker News and which make it really hard to be on this site as a trans person sometimes. There’s a lot of attention being paid to the people who resigned, or whose moderator status was revoked—and how accommodating they may or may not have been—but it seems like very little of them are focusing on the people who this preferred pronoun policy…
These days i seek to find a gender neutral word i can get into the habit of using (it, or they, or something similar), for fear of mis-nouning someone. Though, i also have the fear that if i use something neutral, when someone requested a specific non-neutral pronoun, i may be negatively impacted.
As someone "on the spectrum" social norms are already difficult. All of this talk just makes me nervous.
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I'm under the impression that you misunderstand the CoC update procedure. It has not been updated . SE is hellbent on updating it in the future, and they explicitly stated that they are not willing to budge an inch on its gender-/pronoun-related contents. This is not accidental, there is not one single dissident behind it but the entire company. It will be the duty of the moderators to enforce the new CoC. The discus…
Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Just be nice to people. For fuck's sake.
People online can be horrible asshats to a degree they wouldn't dare be in person.
These two facts tend to collide and go bad places.
(This comment is only describing the problem space, not taking sides in an argument.)